03-12-2001 22:13									#31
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I think terrorist attacks by anyone are deplorable. I am very much in favour of finding every member of Hamas and its related terrorist groups and stringing them up to dry.

But at what stage do they become terrorists? Many of you claim Arafat is a terrorist. He certainly was in the past. Personally I think that no-one who was previously advocating terror should ever be allowed into office. That would include, for example, Nelson Mandella in South Africa.

However, I don't believe that Arafat is a terrorist any more, and I believe that he genuinely wants peace. If you want to call him a terrorist then one must also recognize that the Israeli government are just a bunch of terrorists too. To paraphrase Mr Bush, anyone who supports terrorists are terrorists themselves.

You can't have it both ways - either both the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli govt are terrorists or neither is.

Personally, I would like to depose both and impose some sort of UN martial law on the place.

	03-12-2001 22:16									#32
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This is NOT trolling. This is MY views, it is a COMMON SENSE view, and it is the RIGHT view. You may advocate left wing peace talk, but I know how it works and there will be no peace EVER!!

	03-12-2001 22:31									#33
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F-16 fighters attacked two targets in Jenin, and the Pals report about an explosion in an apartment of ones of Arafat's Presidential Guards, two are seriously injured.

	03-12-2001 22:54									#34
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Israel knows what it has to do if it wants to break out of this cycle of violence.

	03-12-2001 23:18									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I think terrorist attacks by anyone are deplorable. I am very much in favour of finding every member of Hamas and its related terrorist groups and stringing them up to dry. But at what stage do they become terrorists? Many of you claim Arafat is a terrorist. He certainly was in the past. Personally I think that no-one who was previously advocating terror should ever be allowed into office. That would include, for example, Nelson Mandella in South Africa. However, I don't believe that Arafat is a terrorist any more, and I believe that he genuinely wants peace.

If Arafat has genuinely turned from terrorism and wants peace he can prove it TODAY. Let him arrest all the Hamas leaders, and extradite them to Israel immediately.

If he fails to do that, your statement about him does not stand.

LOTM

	03-12-2001 23:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Maybe we could just kill off both sides.

Well maybe you want to kill off all the Palestinians Guevara, but i do not. I cannot beleive that there is no potential leadership among them that will realize that this kind of violence is self-defeating. Arafat may not be the leader,) but his fall from power (if he fails to RAPIDLY change his ways) will certainly send a message to any subsequent Palestinian leader, just as the events in Afganistan are sending a message to those who shelter terrorism around the world.

LOTM

	03-12-2001 23:31									#37
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The only way to save peace now is for the US and the Europeans to put enormous pressure on Arafat to crack down on Hamas. A few revolving door arrests arent enough - he must destroy all Hamas facilities, finances, infrastructure on PA soil. He must arrest every Hamas member to be found. The senior leaders must be extradited.

Then - and only then - it will be time for the world to ask Israel for concessions.

LOTM

	03-12-2001 23:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Apparently Hamas have suicide bombers queueing up around the block eager to volunteer! (Guess they figure that if they're going to die anyway, they might as well take a few Israelis with them...)

Then let Arafat arrest them.

LOTM

	03-12-2001 23:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo If both the Israelis and Palestinians could get their asses to the peace table this wouldn't happen... no either side must continue killing each other. This is unbelievable and this shows my growing discontent with both the Israelis and Palestinian Authority.

They were at the peace table, and they can return if the violence stops. And Arafat must stop it. And it is not for you to be disconted with israel or the PA. It is for you to tell YOUR govt to put pressure on Arafat to crack down on terror now, so that peace negotians may proceed.

LOTM

	04-12-2001 00:53									#40
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The main problem is that if Arafat does anything serious to Hamas or Islamic Jihad, he'll probably won't stay in power for more than few days after. Hamas enjoys at least a similar level of popular support as the PA. Now I think that Arafat's days are numbered anyway (too much pressure from both sides), however I think it is better if the Islamic fundamentalists don't get into power. The only way to properly ensure this is peace.

Which of course is easier said than done . The Camp David proposal that Barak offered is one option, but Sharon would never accept it. I think that as Arafat's position has become so precarious, he should agree with less than was offered last time. The Israeli government will also have to concede on some points (settlements probably being the main sticking point), and insist that as part of any peace deal, the PA either arrests all the main people behind the terrorist groups and hands them over to Israel, or allow the Israelis to come in and do the job for them.

	04-12-2001 01:22									#41
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Is it really in Isreal's long term national interest to humiliate Arafat to the point where he will have absolutely no power to crack down on Hamas and the Islamic Jihad?

	04-12-2001 01:52									#42
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Arafat had more than 24 hours to stop the violence and he did not. If MOBIUS reports are true, then the bombing is even more justified, since it proves that Arafat will not close down open Hamas operation and recruiting of suicide bombers in the open. Arafat had his chance before, now he won't get it. He wants to use terrorism as a tool of negotiation, and that means that he is a terrorist.

Rogan Josh: How can the Israeli government be a terrorist entity? It does not inentionally kill civillians.

	04-12-2001 02:09									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Natan Rogan Josh: How can the Israeli government be a terrorist entity? It does not inentionally kill civillians.

If it is not killing them intentionally them it is bloody careless. Irael is a state which was founded on terrorism, so a holier-than-thou attitude seems a little misplaced. It is shameful that the British gave in to the terrorist demands.

Anyway, if a suicide bomber were to blow up George Bush, would he not be a terrorist?

	04-12-2001 02:33									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh [QUOTE] If it is not killing them intentionally them it is bloody careless.

I don't really see any evidence that it's more careless than any other army.

quote: Irael is a state which was founded on terrorism, so a holier-than-thou attitude seems a little misplaced. It is shameful that the British gave in to the terrorist demands.

The Irgun was not a terrorist organization, since it did not target civillians. Furthermore, the state of Israel was founded by Mapai, not the Irgun.

quote: Anyway, if a suicide bomber were to blow up George Bush, would he not be a terrorist?

He might get labelled as such for propaganda purposes, but he's certainly not a terrorist in the sense that people who try to kill civillians are. Otherwise we would have to call George Bush a terrorist since he had Mohammed Atef killed without trial.

	04-12-2001 02:34									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Is it really in Isreal's long term national interest to humiliate Arafat to the point where he will have absolutely no power to crack down on Hamas and the Islamic Jihad?

Seeing as he has no will to crack down on them in the first place, I don't see why Israel shouldn't protect its security itself.

	04-12-2001 02:53									#46
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"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset"


If you're a christian you'll have a good idea what this quote means.

	04-12-2001 03:45									#47
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark They were at the peace table, and they can return if the violence stops. And Arafat must stop it. And it is not for you to be disconted with israel or the PA. It is for you to tell YOUR govt to put pressure on Arafat to crack down on terror now, so that peace negotians may proceed. LOTM

These so-called "peace negotiations" were a farce, although many were wilfully blind to this fact. the Palestinians never fulfill any of the things they agree to, including the recognition of Israel's right to exist.

As to the "Israel was founded on terrorism" bit, Israel can proudly claim to be a state founded by the UN. It wasn't a question of, "you give us our country, or the King gets it!"

There are some shameful incidents in Israel's past, but we shouldn't forget that there are some shameful incidents in the pasts of certain other countries in the region.

	04-12-2001 03:50									#48
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The thing is, Natan, Israel doesn't seem to be targetting Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but rather the PA. Even if the PA is sitting on its ass doing nothing, that seems counter-productive to me. Israel has proved time and again it has no respect for Palestinian authority, so why not just go in and get Hamas themselves, if they know who the terrorists are, instead of bombing the PA. When they invade the West Bank and Gaza strip, it just seems like they're shooting anything that moves and shutting things down, not going on policing operations.

Of course, it could be deliberate policy of Israel to weaken the "moderating" influence of Arafat while ignoring Hamas. This objectively strengthens Hamas, resulting in a permanent reason for Israeli occupation. It only costs Israel a few citizens, in return they get continued water access and settlements, as well as not having those wedges into their heartland.

I am cynical enough to believe that the Israeli government would do that. Because they are every bit as mean, nasty, evil, and vicious as our own.

	04-12-2001 03:52									#49
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*points at Goingonit*

Hey look, a new player on the ME merry-go-round.

	04-12-2001 04:31									#50
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The thing is, Natan, Israel doesn't seem to be targetting Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but rather the PA. Even if the PA is sitting on its ass doing nothing, that seems counter-productive to me.

Well my personal preference would be to just go after Hamas and Islamic Jihad directly and ignore the PA, but since the "international community" seems to demand that Israel work with the PA, Israel has taken to attacking some smybols of PA power as an inducement to further cooperation. Also, the PA is often involved in terrorism, either by way of members of its police force who moonlight for Hamas or by placing Hamas members in protective custody.

quote: Israel has proved time and again it has no respect for Palestinian authority, so why not just go in and get Hamas themselves, if they know who the terrorists are, instead of bombing the PA. When they invade the West Bank and Gaza strip, it just seems like they're shooting anything that moves and shutting things down, not going on policing operations.

Well firstly, what gets reported in the news is when Israel accidentally shoots a civillian, or that normal life (utilities, schools ,etc.) get shut down during raids, and perhaps that makes sense, but in fact, dozens of people get arrested, and the raids do seem to encourage PA compliance - Israel drove tanks all the way through Beit Jala a few monthes ago, and since then, the PA discovered that it did have the ability to stop the shooting attacks on the neighborhood of Gilo, and it has used this ability ever since - the shooting on Gilo stopped.

quote: Of course, it could be deliberate policy of Israel to weaken the "moderating" influence of Arafat while ignoring Hamas. This objectively strengthens Hamas, resulting in a permanent reason for Israeli occupation. It only costs Israel a few citizens, in return they get continued water access and settlements, as well as not having those wedges into their heartland.

I seriously doubt this, based on what I know about the polticians in Israel's cabinet.

quote: I am cynical enough to believe that the Israeli government would do that. Because they are every bit as mean, nasty, evil, and vicious as our own.

3/4 of Israeli politicians are in it for the money, it's true. But it increasingly seems that even the ones which aren't are anti-Arafat. Of course, this could just be the general pattern of the only ME politicians who aren't jerks being tough guys.

	04-12-2001 07:37									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara *points at Goingonit* Hey look, a new player on the ME merry-go-round.

That's me.

Surprisingly, I find people here share my beliefs more than people at my school . I've argued some ppl down to the basic question of "is there Palestinian terrorism?"

	04-12-2001 10:05									#52
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I fully support the victims of terrorism strike back at the terrorists or those who harbour the terrorists.

	04-12-2001 10:12									#53
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A couple points I missed in prevoius discussions:

1. Somebody once said that the population of Israel was 60 percent Jewish, 40 percent Palestinian. Were those figures for Israel + Jerusalem + West Bank + Gaza, or for Israel within pre 1967 borders?

2. What is the Israeli government's intention for the ultimate dispositon of settlements in the occupied territories? My understanding (assumption??) has been that these settlements would be abandoned / demolished / turned over / whatever in return for a lasting and enforceable peace agreement. True? False? Answer depends on who is in government? Nobody knows?

Thanks.

	04-12-2001 10:33									#54
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The key here is government sponsoring. If Israelis neighbors support the groups that are supporting terrorism, they should be stopped. However, the Israeli government is the one returning fire...that's obvious. They are at completely at fault until it is proven that the governments of the surrounding nations are supporting the terrorism. Until then, it's just mass murder and has no affiliation to groups of people or nations.

	04-12-2001 10:36									#55
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quote: If Arafat has genuinely turned from terrorism and wants peace he can prove it TODAY. Let him arrest all the Hamas leaders, and extradite them to Israel immediately.

Um... I think Arafat would rather live for more than a week. If he starts cracking down on Hamas NOW, he's dead. Simple as that.

And yes, this is counter-productive. If anything, this will increase attacks, and make things worse. More death and destruction are in the works. For some, like Eli, this is something to be lauded.

	04-12-2001 12:21									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith A couple points I missed in prevoius discussions: 1. Somebody once said that the population of Israel was 60 percent Jewish, 40 percent Palestinian. Were those figures for Israel + Jerusalem + West Bank + Gaza, or for Israel within pre 1967 borders?

This is correct for Eretz Yisrael from the West of the River.
In Israel proper, this is 81:19.

quote: 2. What is the Israeli government's intention for the ultimate dispositon of settlements in the occupied territories? My understanding (assumption??) has been that these settlements would be abandoned / demolished / turned over / whatever in return for a lasting and enforceable peace agreement. True? False? Answer depends on who is in government? Nobody knows?

The Likud doesnt support remooving all settlements, but I believe that they will agree to keep the 2-3 big blocks and removing the rest, as proposed by Barak in Camp David. Of course that while in the opposition they fiercely objected to these ideas, but when they are in power things change.
Many in the Labor will agree to removing all settlements, but this wont pass in the referendum, so they also have the Barak proposal and nothing more.

Anything to the left, like Meretz and the Arab Parties are advocating the removing of all settlement, and to the right keeping them all.

	04-12-2001 12:26									#57
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Summary of the Israeli actions so far :

Few empty structures were destroyed. As usual.
The PA is now a "terrorist supporting entity"(doh!), and the Labor party considers leaving the goverment(about time...they cant understand that Oslo is dead).

	04-12-2001 13:20									#58
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It's funny how the world expects Israel to be the better side again and again, when any length of calm is ultimately broken by a muslim fanatic monkey killing a handfull of civilians. The Palestinian cause will not accept Israel as a state through a lack of Israeli retaliation (among any other scenario) - as they have proven time and again.

My full support to Israeli military action. I too would have smiled watching those helicopters go by, yet only if civilian casualties were somehow completely ruled out. For now I can only watch such developments with a straight face, knowing it is the only choice.

Honestly, for those of you opposed to Israeli strikes - what the hell is the alternative???

	04-12-2001 13:25									#59
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quote: muslim fanatic monkey

Gotta love racism on the forums

And they could go after the groups that actually DID IT. Such as Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and not after Arafat, who really can't do jack **** with respect to the other groups.

	04-12-2001 13:33									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: muslim fanatic monkey Gotta love racism on the forums And they could go after the groups that actually DID IT. Such as Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and not after Arafat, who really can't do jack **** with respect to the other groups.

Racism? Go away you indignant little schizo, it's the same as calling some bloody KKK Christian fanatic a "bald monkey". ROLLEYES ROLLEYES HAR HAR DAR YEW IS RACIST.

They're not going after Arafat, they could have killed him long ago had they wanted. They're destroying infrastructure, thereby telling him as well as the rest of PA to get their f*cking acts together in rounding up these filthy zealots, or it could get a lot worse.

Oh, was that last comment racist as well??? Oh poor you, Mr. hard done by.