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Zylka
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You're an idiot, they are not going after Arafat now - they are trying to scare the sh*t out of him and force him to act. And yes, helicopters are considered infrastructure. If they are going after him, he will be dead within the next week and I'll eat my words.
A non white person called a monkey = racist, great conclusion! When I and others quite often call other white people monkeys (for a variety of reasons), that must obviously be racist as well!
I can call suicide bomber zealot muslim monkeys whatever I want. I can call bella-clava capped catholic monkeys whatever the hell I want.
The only thing racist here is suicide bombings against innocent civilians on the basis of their religion. You can delude yourself into thinking otherwise, but in the end you are defending muslim terrorsists (for whatever unrelated reason, I'm pretty confused myself).
I was banned by MtG for making a reactionary quip regarding suicide bombing muslim fanatics out of poor judgement - pretty bloody ironic now, eh?
Last edited by Zylka on 04-12-2001 at 14:03
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Zylka
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Meanwhile, here is some appropriate reading regarding your hard done by monkey zealots. HAHAHAHA Sound familiar?
"Crazed Palestinian Gunmen Angered by Stereotypes"
http://www.theonion.com/onion3108/crazedgunman.html
Last edited by Zylka on 04-12-2001 at 14:07
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Jules
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Chairman & CEO, Dallas Oil Company
Jul 2001
time: 00:16
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quote:
Honestly, for those of you opposed to Israeli strikes - what the hell is the alternative??? |
Ok, I was going to refer you previous posts I made to the ME threads during the summer, but now I can't find them in my profile. Do old posts to the OT forum get deleted eventually? Fortunately I've saved my better posts in Word format. I attach the relevant one here.
Once again I see this thread, like many others on the subject of the ME, degenerating into a spat over which news source is more reliable or Palestinian POV absolutely right vs. Israeli POV absolutely right and mutually exclusive. Don't make me come in here! 
Although I'll admit I'm pleasantly surprised by Gian's remarks. Looks like even hardcore conservatives are allowed to change their mind. Spooky. 
-----------------------
Edit: In short, my Aug. 12 post highlights the need for world leaders to find a "strategic flank" for attacking the problems in the ME. In a region so brutalized and humiliated by the lingering effects of colonialism, the possibility of economic development is the best choice of principle with which to bring together the people of the ME. Without it, there can be no durable peace in the region. Consider, for example, the Oslo peace process during which economic conditions in the West Bank and Gaza actually worsened.
 Attachment: terror attack.zip
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).
Last edited by Jules on 04-12-2001 at 14:46
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:16
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More empty structures are being bombed now...
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Rogan Josh
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I must admit, I am a little bit confused by the Israeli argument? Are they saying that Fatah were responsible for the attacks? I thought Hamas had claimed responsibility?
Or are they claiming that Arafat should have been able to control the actions of an indepentent terrorist organisation (Hamas) opperating outside of Palestine controlled areas? Isn't it the Israelis' job to control security in Israel? Imagine the outcry if the British had bombed Dublin for not stopping IRA attacks in Northern Ireland.
I am also a little confused as to why the Israeli army have been shelling civilian buildings? Is this an attempt to kill the next generation of terrorists before they grow up - or is it a pre-emptive strike against the mothers of the future terrorists before they are born?
quote:
The Irgun was not a terrorist organization, since it did not target civillians.
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So were all the civilians who were killed simply murdered by accident? Even if they were the killing of British soldiers and diplomats in peace time still make Irgun a terrorist organisation.
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Furthermore, the state of Israel was founded by Mapai, not the Irgun.
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Oh - you mean the Irgun is to Mapai what Hamas is to Fatah? Interesting - so your argument of why Fatah are terrorists surely implies that the Israeli government is a terrorist organisation too? But by implication, that would make the Iraeli citizens the supporters of terrorists? Is this what you are saying? I don't think George will like that.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:16
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Gaza, Tul-Karem, Rammalah...
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:16
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Israel knows exactly where Arafat is, we attacked a nearby building today. One bomb to there and he's dead.
So if Israel had wanted to kill him, he would've been already dead.
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Monoriu
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
I must admit, I am a little bit confused by the Israeli argument? Are they saying that Fatah were responsible for the attacks? I thought Hamas had claimed responsibility?
Or are they claiming that Arafat should have been able to control the actions of an indepentent terrorist organisation (Hamas) opperating outside of Palestine controlled areas? Isn't it the Israelis' job to control security in Israel? Imagine the outcry if the British had bombed Dublin for not stopping IRA attacks in Northern Ireland.
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Bin Laden bombed New York. The Taliban is protecting him. Yes they are two different organizations but since the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden and his associates the US have to overthrow the Taliban first. Same thing with Arafat and Hamas. Its the Isreelis job to control security in Israel but its Arafats job to stop all terrorist activity in Gaza and West Bank.
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:16
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So Hamas is responsible, but Israel attacks the PA...
Why not go after the real perpetrators!!? You know, the people that actually carried out the attack!
The PA is supposed to be arresting Hamas members, but Israel bombs the Police stations and Internal Security stations...
So Arafat is supposed to round up Hamas? With what? stick and stones and a couple of crippled policemen!!? How can you expect the PA to act when you hamstring them!? Do you think these Hamas members are going to come peacefully when to do so will be signing their death warrant!? Not on your life, especially when if arrested they would be like sitting ducks in what's left of the PA's police stations! Like when the Hamas leader that was killed the other week was targeted when he was in jail!!!
Israel is not going after Arafat, but his helicopters have been destroyed. (Can he use them? No - so they targeted him, even if they did not intend killing him!)
Even Shimon Peres (the one person I respect in the Israeli govt.) has condemned these attacks!!!
As for Irgun not being a terrorist organisation, tell that the the victims of the King David's Hotel Massacre! IIRC another Israeli PM, Menachim Begin was the leader of that particular bunch of murderers!
As for the connection with Mandela and Arafat, I like that analogy. Funnily enough, although the Israeli mob frequently calls him a terrorist I never see any evidence... So, what atrocities has Arafat himself committed, just to get a sense of perspective here. Note, I'm not denying he has - I just want to know what!
I think that Sharon wants to topple the PA from within, the moment radicals gain power he has all the excuses he needs to declare war and retake the occupied territories for good!
Remember, he is the principal instigator of the settlement programme - they won't be dismantled while he is PM, therefore there will NEVER be peace while Sharon is in power!!!
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:16
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Then why the US attacks the Taliban?
Arafat didnt arrest them after the Dolphinarium(though he promised) and not after Gandhi's murder(and again he promised), so why should we think that he will arrest them now?
The PA, just like the Taliban, harbors terrorists, and therefore it will be attacked.
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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by Monoriu
Bin Laden bombed New York. The Taliban is protecting him. Yes they are two different organizations but since the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden and his associates the US have to overthrow the Taliban first. Same thing with Arafat and Hamas. Its the Isreelis job to control security in Israel but its Arafats job to stop all terrorist activity in Gaza and West Bank. |
That is completely different and you know it! Hamas primarily work out of Lebanon and Syria, not Palestine - Arafat could not have stopped these attacks, and he is not refusing to 'turn Hamas over'.
This is all just a cynical ploy by Israel to remove power from Arafat's Fatah, giving Hamas more power, so that they can bomb Palestine with American consent.
But while we are at it, why don't the Israelis hand over Sharon to be given a fair trail in a Palastinian court?
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:16
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quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush will announce Tuesday his administration's first financial crackdown on groups allegedly financing the militant wing of the Palestinian group Hamas, a move that includes freezing the U.S. assets of a Texas-based Islamic foundation believed to be a leading fund-raiser for it.
Called the Holy Land Foundation, the Richardson, Texas-based group raised $13 million last year, according to a senior Bush administration official.
"They use charitable acts as a front," said the official, who could not say what percentage of the group's fund-raising is allegedly provided to Hamas.
Police and government agents, including the FBI, were at the foundation's office in Richardson. In a document posted on the front door of the office, the foundation denied it supports any terrorist activity and called the government's action a "smear campaign."
An FBI spokeswoman at the scene said the agency would be providing assistance to the Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control in executing what she described as a "blocking order."
In a mission statement on its Web site, the foundation said it works for finding "solutions for human suffering through humanitarian programs that impact the lives of the disadvantaged, disinherited and displaced peoples suffering from man-made and natural disasters." The statement said the foundation's area of focus is "Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon and Palestine."
Two other groups targeted, which are not believed to have any assets in the United States, are the Aqsa Bank in the West Bank and Beit El-Mal Holdings Co. in Jordan.
The senior official alleged these groups not only siphon off profits to Hamas but also move money around for the terrorist organization.
Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill and Attorney General John Ashcroft are scheduled to join Bush for the Tuesday morning announcement at the White House.
Tuesday's action was in the works but "accelerated" after this weekend's suicide bombings that killed 25 Israelis, according to the senior official. Hamas claimed responsibility for those attacks.
"This was something we were going to do," the senior official said. "It is certainly not only in response to this weekend. ... It is something we probably would have done in the next seven to 10 days."
Since 1995, when Hamas was listed as a foreign terrorist organization in the United States, the group's assets have been frozen in this country. But in October, under a Bush executive order, the Treasury Department was given the authority to go after the financiers of terrorist groups beyond Osama bin Laden, including Hamas
U.S. officials said Tuesday's announcement marked the first time the Bush administration's financial crackdown, which began after the September 11 attacks, included organizations linked to financing terrorist groups other than al Qaeda.
The last major announcement on this front came a month ago, when the administration added 62 organizations and individuals to the list and said most of them operated as part of two financial groups that provided support to bin Laden and al Qaeda: the al Taqwa and al Barakaat networks.
Officials allege those organizations and their affiliates provided financial as well as communications and other support to al Qaeda.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:16
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Also, Israel reinforces it's troops on the Lebanese border.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Well he can't now because the IDF has bombed his police force!
... where are those 'Arafat is a terrorist and we can prove it' links I asked for, Eli? I'm sure he is, I just want to see it he's responsible for murdering as many people as say Sharon... |
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=36850
is one such proof. I have no TV card so I couldn't take screen captures.
Further more, to know more about Arafat (and your knowledge is obviously and admittedly sparse) read about the founding of the PLO or how it was renamed Red October after an intifada in Jordan.
Then read how Arafat moved to lebanon, causing there the civil war, a result of which was the Israeli invasion and Sabra and Shatilla (while you pick on that incident, such incidents were very often during the civil war and caused by it).
quote:
Also the primary movers behind Hamas are Syria and Iran - why aren't you attacking them, are you chicken sh*ts or just hypocrites!
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We aren't engaged in peace talks with Syria or Iran. They promised us nothing and we expect nothing. Arafat was given the opportunity to return to the west bank by Rabin who started Oslo after Arafat pledged he will forever renounce terror.
Hamas and Jihad, while supported and funded by Syria and Iran, are based in the west bank and Gaza.
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I see it now, Arafat sends in the PA police to kidnap Hamas memebers from Damascus!
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I see it now, Israel kidnaps terrorists from the PA.
Wait it's already hapenning.
Plus, we elimintate those who are tough to capture.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by MOBIUS
So Hamas is responsible, but Israel attacks the PA...
Why not go after the real perpetrators!!? You know, the people that actually carried out the attack!
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Because when we do that, we are frowned upon by the likes of yourself and Arafat.
Arafat then promises he will take care of them. But he doesn't.
So we now apply serious military pressure on Arafat.
quote:
The PA is supposed to be arresting Hamas members, but Israel bombs the Police stations and Internal Security stations... |
The PA doesn't arrest Hamas members anyway, and the Police and Internal Security are active participants in anti-Israeli terror. Not in the bombings, but in mortar shooting and in shootouts in town centers and roads.
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So Arafat is supposed to round up Hamas? With what? stick and stones and a couple of crippled policemen!!? How can you expect the PA to act when you hamstring them!? |
LOL
How many were injured? 200 tops.
Arafat has 50,000 armed men!!!!!!
50,000!!!!!
After the bombings Arafat was too successfull arresting over a hundred people in 24 hours!!!
And suddenly his policemen didn't ran away when shot at by Hamasniks. Infact they were hardly shot at, and when they were, they shot right back - unlike before.
Does it look like he doesn't control the area when he wants to?
But unfortunately the people he rounded up are hardly those which have anything to do with todays terror. Israeli military personell called them "Senior Terrorists" since they are mostly no longer particpants and almost none of the ~110 arrested are on the Israeli hot wanted lists.
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Do you think these Hamas members are going to come peacefully when to do so will be signing their death warrant!? |
"death warrant"?
You mean going along with a fake show and theng etting released is a "death warrant"?
Do you know that a person Israel eliminated last month, was reported by Arafat to be locked up. "He's in jail" he promised publically. Shortly after that he was eliminated by Israel while driving in north of the west bank in his car with 2 of his aids.
That's hardly a death warrant. That shows Arrafat lies and doesn't really fight terror but only pretends to. And that is the conclusion the american government rached - and that's why it supports Israel.
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Not on your life, especially when if arrested they would be like sitting ducks in what's left of the PA's police stations! Like when the Hamas leader that was killed the other week was targeted when he was in jail!!! |
?
I believe he wasn't in jail infact.
Suppose I go with your arguement:
Terrorists won't go down peacefully. True. So?
Does it mean that Araft is exempt from fighting them then? since "it's oh so tough"?
If he doesn't do it - we do it with our own means. And we had to use them.
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Israel is not going after Arafat, but his helicopters have been destroyed. (Can he use them? No - so they targeted him, even if they did not intend killing him!) |
I didn't get the last illogical sentance.
How can they target him when they don't target him?
They target symbols of his power. That's still not him.
Until we target him and hit a lamp near him, you can't say that we targeted him without intending to kill him.
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Even Shimon Peres (the one person I respect in the Israeli govt.) has condemned these attacks!!! |
He hasn't condemned these attacks. That's a lie.
He hasn't condemned them publically, and hasn't condemned them in private.
The only thing that Labor members oppose was the label put on the PA as a terrorist organization, since it leaves no hope for future negociations.
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As for Irgun not being a terrorist organisation, tell that the the victims of the King David's Hotel Massacre! IIRC another Israeli PM, Menachim Begin was the leader of that particular bunch of murderers! |
I'm a bit skeptic of that because IIRC all Irgun members were caught and executed by the Brittish mandate (and then you lecture us how eliminating terrorists is wrong).
How ever, to my knowledge, Irgun called and warned of the bomb planted there. The brittish didn't take them seriously.
That's very different from placing a bomb without warning ahead.
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As for the connection with Mandela and Arafat, I like that analogy. Funnily enough, although the Israeli mob frequently calls him a terrorist I never see any evidence... |
A) Because BBC and The Guardian prefer to hid it from you.
B) Because you're far away in england and have no access to sources within the Shin Bet and Aman.
C) Because you're bigotted and choose to ignore any such evidence even if it's infront of your eyes.
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So, what atrocities has Arafat himself committed, just to get a sense of perspective here. Note, I'm not denying he has - I just want to know what! |
For instance the murder of Israeli sportsmen in Munich.
For instance the capturing of Israeli passanger planes.
For instance dozens of raids on small Israeli towns and kibutzes.
For isntance hundreds of murders on Jordanian arabs while he reigned in Jordan in the 60s and early 70s.
And later starting the Lebanon civil war in the late seventies until driven out by Israel.
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I think that Sharon wants to topple the PA from within, the moment radicals gain power he has all the excuses he needs to declare war and retake the occupied territories for good! |
Possibly.
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Remember, he is the principal instigator of the settlement programme - they won't be dismantled while he is PM, therefore there will NEVER be peace while Sharon is in power!!! |
Settlements aren't the reason for no peace.
There were no settlements in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's. And still arab terror was directed against anything jewish starting from the 20s up until now.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
That is completely different and you know it! Hamas primarily work out of Lebanon and Syria, not Palestine - Arafat could not have stopped these attacks, and he is not refusing to 'turn Hamas over'. |
That's absolutely false and shows lack of knowledge. Sorry if that's blunt but that's the way it is.
Hezballa works out of Lebanon and Syria.
Hamas, while enjoys support and funding, is based in the west bank and Gaza.
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This is all just a cynical ploy by Israel to remove power from Arafat's Fatah, giving Hamas more power, so that they can bomb Palestine with American consent. |
Why wouldn't we want to remove power from Fatah?
1/3 of the dead Israelis died from terror acts performed by Arafat's own security forces, including Tanzim and Fatah.
Why, the shooting in the middle of Afula on tuesday last week was performed by one radical and one Fatah member. Fatah openly claimed responsability.
Fatah is then a terrori organization -> therfore it must be destroyed.
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But while we are at it, why don't the Israelis hand over Sharon to be given a fair trail in a Palastinian court? |
Have you heard of the fair trials given to palestinians in the Palestinian court?
Many palestinians who were suspected to be cooperators were simply executed.
Some "enjoyed" field courts
Some enjoyed the palestinian justice system: 1 week of torture, 5 hours of "fair trial" and a public execution - filmed and broadcasted by international media.
Last edited by Sirotnikov on 05-12-2001 at 01:07
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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
How ever, to my knowledge, Irgun called and warned of the bomb planted there. The brittish didn't take them seriously.
That's very different from placing a bomb without warning ahead
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Well, that just sums up your views doesn't it! Ii find it rather amazing that you can make excuses for such atrocity.
quote:
That's absolutely false and shows lack of knowledge. Sorry if that's blunt but that's the way it is.
Hezballa works out of Lebanon and Syria.
Hamas, while enjoys support and funding, is based in the west bank and Gaza.
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So if you know where they are why don't you arrest them? Surely you don't lack the knowledge? (or am I being too blunt for you?)
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Smith
2. What is the Israeli government's intention for the ultimate dispositon of settlements in the occupied territories? My understanding (assumption??) has been that these settlements would be abandoned / demolished / turned over / whatever in return for a lasting and enforceable peace agreement. True? False? Answer depends on who is in government? Nobody knows?
Thanks. |
Basically, it depends on whose in the government, but everyone agrees that Arafat will keep the Jewish neighborhoods and suburbs of Jerusalem.
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Well he can't now because the IDF has bombed his police force! |
No, just his personal security force. Those guys don't arrest terrorists.
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Also the primary movers behind Hamas are Syria and Iran - why aren't you attacking them, are you chicken sh*ts or just hypocrites! |
1) I think you, and the world, would be complaining quite loudly if Syria and Iran were attacked by Israel.
2) By this logic, the US should attack Saudi Arabia instead of Afghanistan. What Syria provides is a little funding (emphasis on little, they prefer Islamic Jihad) but what Arafat provides is propaganda, protection, and even soldiers. Furthermore, Hamas has other sources (like smuggling and donations from diaspora Muslims) and could develop new ones. They even get money from Saudi Arabian princes.
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I see it now, Arafat sends in the PA police to kidnap Hamas memebers from Damascus! |
It's not Hamas members in Damascus who are performing the suicide bombings. The people who make the bombs, the people who give the orders, and the people who detonate the bombs are Palestinians from the west bank in 90% of cases.
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As for Irgun not being a terrorist organisation, tell that the the victims of the King David's Hotel Massacre! IIRC another Israeli PM, Menachim Begin was the leader of that particular bunch of murderers! |
The King David Hotel was a military installation and the Irgun even gave prior warning. This is more than the US would do to a Taliban HQ in a mosque.
quote:
As for the connection with Mandela and Arafat, I like that analogy. Funnily enough, although the Israeli mob frequently calls him a terrorist I never see any evidence... So, what atrocities has Arafat himself committed, just to get a sense of perspective here. Note, I'm not denying he has - I just want to know what! |
The Maalot massacre, the various bus bombings, massacre of Christians at Damour in Lebanon, etc. etc.
quote:
I think that Sharon wants to topple the PA from within, the moment radicals gain power he has all the excuses he needs to declare war and retake the occupied territories for good!
Remember, he is the principal instigator of the settlement programme - they won't be dismantled while he is PM, therefore there will NEVER be peace while Sharon is in power!!! |
And Arafat is the principle instigator of the terrorism programme, and the terrorism won't stop while he's in power.
As for your complaint that Arafat can't stop the violence while his security forces are bombed, let me state firstly that he already showed he had no intention of arresting militants in the past, including in the 24 hours after the bombings, and secondly, that he has functioning security forces in all cities still. And the reason jails get bombed is that Arafat puts Hamas people in "protective custody," meaning that the jail is just a safehouse where they are allowed to continue terrorist plotting until the PA decides its safe for them to go back into the open.
quote:
I must admit, I am a little bit confused by the Israeli argument? Are they saying that Fatah were responsible for the attacks? I thought Hamas had claimed responsibility? |
Firstly, Fatah is responsible for many terrorist attacks, and IIRC a Fatah guy blew up that bus in Afula a few days ago.
quote:
Or are they claiming that Arafat should have been able to control the actions of an indepentent terrorist organisation (Hamas) opperating outside of Palestine controlled areas? Isn't it the Israelis' job to control security in Israel? Imagine the outcry if the British had bombed Dublin for not stopping IRA attacks in Northern Ireland. |
Firstly, it operates in his areas, and secondly, its quite clear that he could do more - since we see that these offices are operating openly in Palestinian cities.
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I am also a little confused as to why the Israeli army have been shelling civilian buildings? Is this an attempt to kill the next generation of terrorists before they grow up - or is it a pre-emptive strike against the mothers of the future terrorists before they are born? |
What civillian buildings has Israel intentionally hit?
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So were all the civilians who were killed simply murdered by accident? |
At the King David hotel, innocents died because the British ignored the Irgun's warning of impending attack. At Deir Yassin, elements of the Irgun attacked civillians, but this doesn't make the Irgun a terrorist organization any more than My Lai makes the US Army one.
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Even if they were the killing of British soldiers and diplomats in peace time still make Irgun a terrorist organisation. |
So there's no difference between a guerilla and a terrorist?
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Oh - you mean the Irgun is to Mapai what Hamas is to Fatah? Interesting - so your argument of why Fatah are terrorists surely implies that the Israeli government is a terrorist organisation too? But by implication, that would make the Iraeli citizens the supporters of terrorists? Is this what you are saying? I don't think George will like that. |
Wrong on two counts:
1) That happened fifty years ago.
2) Mapai was not head of any entity controlling any land whatsoever, the British were in sole possession of the area. The analogy to Mandatory Palestine 1946 isn't West Bank 2001, it's West Bank 1990, before Arafat signed any agreements with Israel and before the PA was created.
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Bob Dornan
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BLACK SEPTEMBER, AKA ABU NIDAL BRIGADE AND FATAH REVOLUTIONARY COUNCIL, WAS FOUNDED BY ABU NIDAL, YASSAR ARAFAT WAS HEAD OF PLO AT THE TIME VERY CLOSE LINKS TO BLACK SEPTEMBER WHICH KILLED OVER 900 WESTERNERS IN ITS 20 YEAR EXISTENCE.
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Zylka
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PEACE BE WITH HAMAS ANYONE WHO ASSOCIATES MURDERERS WITH PRIMITIVE SH*T EATING MONKEYS IS A RACIST HAR HAR
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Zylka
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Its been established that I don't think of arabs as moronic monkeys, I think of any zealot murderer scum as a primitive human being = a monkey. Get off the high horse, w*nker.
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04-12-2001 13:40
peace will never exist. I always figured this, but is now more apparant.
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