23-11-2002 06:56									#902
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Nothing much happened....

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	23-11-2002 07:33									#903
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More internal improvements. unfortunately a British freight is blocked in Hungary, but if it goes around the RR bypass construction, it should have clear sailing.

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	23-11-2002 07:38									#904
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Also when do we want to restore Germany? DO you want me to begin now? I can add them with CivTweak and then we can decide on what techs they get. I'll post the map of what land is being ceded

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	23-11-2002 07:48									#905
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Have you already decided who is going to play Germany? I'd like to if you haven't got anyone else yet.

	23-11-2002 07:58									#906
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ANZAC:
I say go for it, unless there's anything else that needs to be done. I'm going to try to collect all the info and conditions for the new Germany that we set up, as I'm sure most of you forgot what we agreed on as well as me.

Choke:
Sorry, but El Awrence won the election for German Chancellor, you should've thrown your hat in however many months ago we decided to do this

	23-11-2002 08:34									#907
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Kirk: ok, so I'll wait to set it up. I don't know yet how we are going to trade the cities and techs to Germany, and which techs specifically and which govt it should start as, as I can set that in CivTweak.

Choke: sorry, but I don't think you were even registered when we decided on Germany But you are welcome to take Spain

Everyone: Don't play this save yet. Once the techs and procedure is determined I will post the save with Russia's agreed upon cities handed over.

If any of what I said is unclear, speak now or forever hold your peace

	23-11-2002 08:39									#908
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Chancellor Martin von Karreras is eager to govern the new Germany of post occupation.

	23-11-2002 08:59									#909
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Sure, I'll take Spain.

	23-11-2002 12:28									#910
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The democratic government of Turkey will be free to assist in the creation of the new german state!!

Of course, we can't be of much help except for moral support...

Welcome back in the game, El Awrence!

	23-11-2002 14:43									#911
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Choke: ANZAC was joking - Spains only got one tiny city left

	24-11-2002 11:12									#912
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quote: Choke: ANZAC was joking - Spains only got one tiny city left

Allowed to govern itself in nominal independence by the invincible French Army units camped outside the walls

If you want, Anzac, I'm more than happy to fix up techs, cities, etc with the save; I already did a test-run of the reinstation a while back with an old save, and am reasonably confident I can set everything up without problems. We should, however, make sure we've got absolutely clear what techs/units/improvements Germany gets, and what conditions they must fulfill, before we proceed with this.

	24-11-2002 15:00									#913
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Oh, I thought you were adjusting borders to remake Spain too .

	24-11-2002 23:01									#914
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Sure, on your turn we can restore Germany. I posted the map of the first 6 cities to be given. Everything else we need to decide.

	25-11-2002 01:50									#915
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I'm still sorting through all the stuff we talked about earlier....there sure was a lot, I'll post what we agreed or didn't agree to later today

EDIT: I've looked through about 6 pages of stuff, #s 35-40, just so you know if you want to check it out yourselves. It looks like we'd made some agreements since that latest map that ANZAC just reposted, and there were several lingering issues that weren't resolved before we were all distracted by the series of railway disputes.

Last edited by JamesJKirk on 25-11-2002 at 02:24

	25-11-2002 07:33									#916
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Ah yes, those railway disputes and the still-born ERC!

	25-11-2002 08:27									#917
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I typed up a whole long explanation, but lost my connection as I was trying to post it, so here I go again
The handover will occur in 4 phases and there are 4 zones to go w/ this: Interim, Provisional, Occupation, and Plebescite. The map ANZAC posted accurately shows the first phase, the only difference I believe is that Hambug, Luebeck, Cologne, Dortmund, Prague and Vienna are all Occupation Zones.

It was bascially agreed that prerequisite for Germany to move past the first phase would have something to do w/ becoming a democracy. A combination of all suggestions would be to have Germany start as a monarchy, then have to research democracy, revolt and become one, and build a palace in Berlin. Germany will also be forbidden from having a password for a certain amount of time, and the Chancellor will be subject to reelection between each phase, or I propose, it one of the Occupying Powers calls for one. As for which techs Germany should have, will the game remember which ones it had when it was defeated?

On the military, there were several proposals floating around for limits, having to do w/ either numerical limits or limits on types of units. I would suggest both, perhaps limit Germany to half or twothirds as many units as Italy or Turkey, and forbid it from having heavy artillery, Armored Cruisers and Battleship-type ships, and eventually tanks and air units. There were suggestions that these last a certain amount of time, but I have no idea how long would be good.

There was also a suggestion that we allow El Awrence some input in what we're building in the cities to be handed over, but I think everyone forgot, so we can go ahead and start this for the second wave of cities and beyond.

For the Plebiscite Areas, it was agreed that Cyrion would be the Plebiscite Moniter, but beyond that, we had no clue how to work this out, so that still needs to be figured out, but we have time.

Also, there were questions about what should be in the cities when we hand them over. I've gone ahead and just left leftover 1 Prussian Conscript in each of the cities so far, does that work?

	25-11-2002 08:41									#918
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Just don't give me a Dresden civ.

I'd like to be democratic too.

	25-11-2002 16:16									#919
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One of France's proposed conditions is that our eventual frontier with Germany be recognized as the Rhine, and that we be allowed to continue occupying our forts on that river (even though some of these are within two tiles of future German cities).

	26-11-2002 07:09									#920
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I forgot to put that, I have no problem with that, other than what ANZAC said earlier, so long as Germany is able to use its resources, so the forts either have to be on worthless tiles, or you have to have an alliance, which I think we all should do w/ Germany

	26-11-2002 07:55									#921
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Yes, the fortresses must not hinder German use of the squares at all. Alliance is good, but what if it ends? Then how do we work it out?

	26-11-2002 08:06									#922
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Well if the alliance is cancelled, France's units will automatically be moved out of German territory, so I don't see a problem there

	27-11-2002 03:07									#923
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The forts do not hinder German movement at all; there are bypasses around them. AFAIK too, they're on worthless tiles for the most part.

The restoration period can be regarded as sort of a trial period for this measure; if problems arise with these fortifications, France will be happy to work something out with Germany's interim government.

	27-11-2002 03:20									#924
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Another thing: are we willing to give Germany their unique national tech? While this does (I think) lead to scary powerful German units in the future, I do think it would make things more interesting... and its kind of unfair to make Germany have to put up with substandard default conscripts etc (sorry Cyrion - maybe you can have the German tech too ).

One idea: perhaps Germany could be awarded her special tech at one of the later interim stages of the restoration, after she has proved 'mature' enough (or whatever - rich enough to bribe us all, maybe ) to use it.

Last edited by winterfritz on 27-11-2002 at 03:28

	27-11-2002 03:39									#925
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Uhm, the tech should be there by default.

	27-11-2002 03:41									#926
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If Germany is to recognise the Rhine as a border, we ask that this be a temporary border so that the reinclusion of areas of German majority be given the possibility of reuniting with Germany in the future. The same goes with the rest of people holding onto more German cities.

	27-11-2002 03:42									#927
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I don't think the tech is there, because Germany was totally destroyed - when we restart it, it will have zero tech AFAIK.

quote: If Germany is to recognise the Rhine as a border, we ask that this be a temporary border so that the reinclusion of areas of German majority be given the possibility of reuniting with Germany in the future. The same goes with the rest of people holding onto more German cities.

I don't like this German leader, lets get a new one

Seriously though: France is unwilling to discuss the matter of the Rhine frontier. Germany can either accept the matter of the frontier, or attack France, get beaten to a bloody pulp by France's invincible armies, and then meekly accept the matter of the frontier.

	27-11-2002 04:09									#928
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Well if Germany as well as the techs are all the way gone, we could open up the last turn that it played in and see what it has and go from there, and maybe, if we're nice decided to give Germany a couple more techs.

Britain backs France on the issue of the Rhineland. All of us have been nice enough to give Germany what land it will receive, any further exchange of territory will have to be done bilaterally and after the full transition period, or as France said, by fruitless attempts at conquest.

	27-11-2002 12:29									#929
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quote: Originally posted by winterfritz France's invincible armies

Yeah, sure...

Oh, you meant in the game, sorry!

So guys, I don't know if I have my say in this matter (as I wasn't involved in the war against Germany), but well, I'll speak as a fellow player then...

First, I think Germany need to have the German tech from the start: they ARE german, after all...

And if we want to hinder them from getting the strong units too fast, then you can act on the other techs you give them (limiting them, I mean...)

As for the techs they have from the start, I think the one they had at the end of the war would be alright: the occupation has logically hindered their scientific development, and it's not as if they lost 10s of techs!

Of course, if you think they would be much too far behind, then give them a few techs, but only those without any military application, maybe??

But once again, these are just player's thoughts and don't reflect in any matter the opinion of the Turkish government...

	28-11-2002 04:19									#930
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I agree with Cyrion: Germany should get all its techs back, but just have unit restrictions on types and numbers.

Also France can have their border at the Rhine if they allow the Rhine River squares to be a DMZ and then the fortresses would be on the French side.