21-01-2002 02:36									#91
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quote: What about the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Or did they waive those by going to war with america?

And what moral or legal authority does the United Nations have to pass a "Universal" declaration of any kind? *snicker*

	21-01-2002 02:36									#92
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd It's saying, for example, "The Holocaust was morally wrong, yet it would also be wrong for us to punish you for it, because it did not violate your laws and we have no moral authority to impose our beliefs and laws upon you."

If the Nazis' actions were morally wrong, then why wouldn't we have the moral authority to punish them?

	21-01-2002 02:37									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin If the USA was like the Romans, and if we were motivated by revenge, several middle eastern cities would vanish in mushroom clouds. But we're not like the Romans. Or the Russians, come to that. So I suggest you explain what we're doign which violate their human rights.

You ****s can't read... I never said that the US had violated human rights, but that the opportunity to was great.

Think about manifest destiny, and the US' destruction of several native american tribes' way of life. Then look at Japanese Interment in WWII. The US has a past history of getting carried away.

	21-01-2002 02:42									#94
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quote: If the Nazis' actions were morally wrong, then why wouldn't we have the moral authority to punish them?

Because they violated no law, other than a moral law that some, but by no means all, people agree with. Punishing them would be, in effect, passing an ex post facto law and punishing them in that manner, something that is certainly immoral.

	21-01-2002 02:47									#95
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I fully agree with Horse.

	21-01-2002 02:50									#96
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Because they violated no law, other than a moral law that some, but by no means all, people agree with. Punishing them would be, in effect, passing an ex post facto law and punishing them in that manner, something that is certainly immoral.

Alright, but how is that not moral relativism? If every nation is able to determine what is "right" and "wrong" by passing laws saying, for example, "killing the Jews is right," then that's cultural relativism. An objective moral code would say "You have a moral obligation to block and/or disobey unjust laws," which would give the Allies the moral authority to punish the Nazis (and other non-signatory war criminals).

	21-01-2002 02:53									#97
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quote: Alright, but how is that not moral relativism? If every nation is able to determine what is "right" and "wrong" by passing laws saying, for example, "killing the Jews is right," then that's cultural relativism. An objective moral code would say "You have a moral obligation to block and/or disobey unjust laws," which would give the Allies the moral authority to punish the Nazis (and other non-signatory war criminals).

The simple solution, of course, is that moral absolutism does not extend to violating concepts of national sovereignty.

I can say that an action is absolutely wrong. I can also say I have no right to do anything about it. This is not inconsistent.

For another example, I could claim homosexuality was absolutely wrong. By your argument, I'd have a moral duty to try to eradicate it. This obviously isn't the case though. Just because I claim something doesn't necessarily make it so, and even if it did, I still wouldn't have any right to act upon that.

	21-01-2002 03:04									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin You mean: 1)The nazis 2) The spanish inquisition and other new world activities. 3) the french reign of terror 4) the british in ireland, or south arica, or in the sepoy rebellion 5) The Belgians in Africa I'd go on, but I don't want to turn this into a troll. Just reminding everyone that civilization aint all its cracked up to be.

I was thinking of modern day Europe. Anyways are you gonna bring up the vikings if I say Scandinavia?

	21-01-2002 03:16									#99
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I can say that an action is absolutely wrong. I can also say I have no right to do anything about it. This is not inconsistent.

Agreed. If your maxims are not sufficiently justified, then they must yield to justified maxims.

quote: For another example, I could claim homosexuality was absolutely wrong. By your argument, I'd have a moral duty to try to eradicate it. This obviously isn't the case though.

Well, it depends on how you go about eradicating it. The maxim "do not kill without just cause" is justified, while the maxim "homosexuality is evil" is not; therefore, you can't kill homosexuals in order to eradicate homosexuality. This doesn't necessarily mean that it would be wrong for you to protest Gay Pride parades, though.

However, if the govt. passed a law saying that all homosexuals are to be detained and executed, then you (and all other citizens) would have a moral obligation to disobey this law (by protesting, sneaking homosexuals out of the country, hiding homosexuals in your home, etc.), unless somehow the govt. is able to sufficiently justify the executions such that you feel that you would not be violating the maxim "do not kill without just cause" in obeying the law.

	21-01-2002 03:18									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Lars-E I was thinking of modern day Europe. Anyways are you gonna bring up the vikings if I say Scandinavia?

Good idea!

	21-01-2002 03:21									#101
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loin, I'm not quite sure I understand your point, nor do I think we are arguing from the same mindset.

My belief is no matter how wrong something is, a nation has no right to punish another nation for doing that wrong, unless that wrong was committed directly against that nation, and that nation only.

	21-01-2002 03:37									#102
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But surely you're not saying that because other nations were represented inside the WTC, that the U.S. has no authority to respond?

	21-01-2002 03:39									#103
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No of course not. The attack was clearly on US soil, regardless of who else was affected. The US is, by definition, the nation that was attacked.

	21-01-2002 03:44									#104
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My belief is no matter how wrong something is, a nation has no right to punish another nation for doing that wrong, unless that wrong was committed directly against that nation, and that nation only.

Fair enough. I'm just saying that that's moral relativism.

My belief is that there are a few actions (mass murder being the primary example) that are so clearly wrong that any nation has the moral authority to intervene to stop and punish such actions performed by another nation.

	21-01-2002 03:47									#105
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That's not moral relativism at all. Respect for national sovereignty, at all costs, fits in with my definition of absolute morality.

	21-01-2002 03:48									#106
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They know their Government is doing the wrong thing. If they weren't, they wouldn't be so God damn sensitive about it.

If you have to tie yourself in knots to justify that treatment of prisoners then that treatment is WRONG.

And there is no wriggling out of it.

	21-01-2002 04:17									#107
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I have not problem one with the way they're being treated.
They're not being abused, but if they were I still might not have a huge problem with it.
The fact is, the U.S. always has and always will treat p.o.w.'s decently.

	21-01-2002 04:19									#108
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand The fact is, the U.S. always has and always will treat p.o.w.'s decently.

Ah - first use of the term P.O.W.

Now we're getting somewhere

	21-01-2002 04:24									#109
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I don't have a problem with the term either.
It's been called a war on terrorism all along.
I'm not one of those saying that it has to be representatives of a country.
If there was a civil war, would that mean there were no prisoners?

	21-01-2002 04:35									#110
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So you would be quite happy for U.S. P.O.Ws to be held in those conditions - not afforded P.O.W. status, called terrorists, interrograted, chained, suffering sensory deprivation, held in solitary confinement, unable to speak, paraded before the media like animals?

Last edited by Alexander's Horse on 21-01-2002 at 04:40

	21-01-2002 04:42									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse So you would be quite happy for U.S. P.O.Ws to be held in those conditions - not afforded P.O.W. status, called terrorists, interrograted, chained, suffering sensory deprivation, held in solitary confinement, unable to speak, paraded before the media like animals?

You seem to be having trouble understanding the concepts forwarded in this thread. Perhaps you should give it up.

	21-01-2002 04:50									#112
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That's happened a bunch of times.

If the US "POWs" were out of uniform, acting without national authority, not citizens of a combatant nation in the conflict, then that's a bit different from regular uniformed prisoners when the US is a combatant nation.

As for the *******s in Gitmo, so what if they're called terrorists? They're so ****ing sensitive being called a name is going to make them cry?

So what if they're not accorded POW status - they ain't eligible under the terms of the Geneva convention

Every prisoner is routinely interrogated. That's part of the normal business of military prisoner processing, worldwide. So what's your whine about that?

Chained? The mother****ers are a security threat - escapees and security threats may be treated as necessary to properly restrain and secure them, assuming you follow international guidelines. Are you gonna tell me now your civilian prisons don't have bars and you never restrain prisoners? Bullshit.

Held in solitary confinement? Like it's real tough to talk through chain link fences. Or maybe we should let 'em get together so they can rush an isolated guard? Besides, if they're determined enough, they could probably bugger each other through those chainlink fences.

"Paraded before the media" - yeah, like there's hundreds of photos on a daily basis. The paparazzi are just too much for them.

Your trolls are much more believable when you actually have something that's almost conceivably worth whining about.

	21-01-2002 04:52									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse They know their Government is doing the wrong thing. If they weren't, they wouldn't be so God damn sensitive about it. If you have to tie yourself in knots to justify that treatment of prisoners then that treatment is WRONG.

What I have a hard time justifying is how much we're coddling the mother****ers.

Damn waste of money and resources.

	21-01-2002 04:57									#114
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Okay Michael - find one independent international jurist who agrees with your self serving interpretation of the Geneva Convention.

Last time I checked your legal qualifications were zip, or what we call here, "bush lawyer".

	21-01-2002 05:21									#115
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Me.......


(hey, it doesnt take a high paid lawyer or political figurehead to tell me what it means. I think we can all read it ourselves and take it at face value. )

	21-01-2002 05:24									#116
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Oh ya.....if there any doubts as to how dangerous these thugs are. One bit a huge chunk from a marines arm today

I hope it tasted good....

	21-01-2002 05:32									#117
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Oh ya.....if there any doubts as to how dangerous these thugs are. One bit a huge chunk from a marines arm today

That's too bad - but it shows why these people should be in the hands of trained professional prison guards. I'm sure that soldier didn't join for this kind of duty.

	21-01-2002 05:35									#118
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Soldiers can't gaurd cages? On the contrary.....people break out from prisons. But not from our Camps They will get mowed down bye those MG's and Automatic Gernade Launchers in the towers around camp X-Ray...(too dangerous to let get away)

	21-01-2002 05:37									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse That's too bad - but it shows why these people should be in the hands of trained professional prison guards. I'm sure that soldier didn't join for this kind of duty.

No...Soldiers are trained to do what there told. Trust me, they know what there doing and are well equipped to do it.

	21-01-2002 06:01									#120
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I seriously doubt that. No Code Red's please - it could lead to a movie.