21-01-2002 21:13									#181
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Looks like they're perfectly happy and well treated. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk...000/1773143.stm

As long as they're not mistreated in mass, who gives a royal rat's ass if they're happy?
If they're happy they're even stranger than previously believed.

	21-01-2002 21:16									#182
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"I have no idea where this came from, but it is certainly your most assinine statement I have yet seen."

Just shows how polite I usually am.

"Defeatest?"

"-ist", I think ?

"You have b1tched and whined like the little girl you are from the first."

I have ? Suffering from your old reading comprehension problem, again ?

"Say that to my face, you little punk."

Bit difficult. If I could, what exactly are you going to do ? Be a big bad macho-man and beat me up ?

"You have no concept of the Islamic world"

Oh I think I have.

"People like you caused the holocaust, the Nazis, Stalinists, all the ills of this world, because you stood there and debated while they killed."

Hmm... maybe it's really time you stop playing the village idiot.

	21-01-2002 21:17									#183
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The Euro delegation was just impressed because the guards prevented them from bum-****ing all the prisoners, which restraint would never have occured to the Euros.

	21-01-2002 21:21									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola The Euro delegation was just impressed because the guards prevented them from bum-****ing all the prisoners, which restraint would never have occured to the Euros.

You mean the delegation came there to.. uhm.. the prisoners ?

	21-01-2002 21:23									#185
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Make that BBC delegation, does not seem to have been other Euros with them.

	21-01-2002 21:29									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Not just fighting for it, but fighting as a combatant. "belonging" does not refer to nationality. This would be odd indeed.

That's a correct assumption on your part and would include any foreign Taliban fighters but I still fail to see how Al Qaeda fighters meet any of the conditions laid forth out in the Convention. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

quote: How does that relate to mercenaries ?

It relates to thier supposed POW status, not thier status as mercs.

quote: Whether they qualify depends ia on the things you listed above, with command structure another issue. Al quaeda fighting alongside the Taleban could qualify for POW status

How so? The second condition laid forth in Article 4 of the convention seems to specifically exclude them from the definition.

quote: I fail to see a reason to rule this out right away.

Article 5 does provide for a competent tribunal to determine the status of the prisoners if "any doubt" exists to thier POW status. However, it is questionable if they will actually appear before such a tribunal as the US has said that it has no such doubts about thier status.

Chris62: You have no concept of the Islamic world, just listen to what they say, the contempt they hold you your kind.
Mercy and kindness mean nothing,

Are you talking about the Islamic World in general or the "few" Islamists that actively wish for and plan our deaths?

	21-01-2002 21:43									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Just shows how polite I usually am.

I'm through being so with you.
Your opinions are left wing tripe, of the worst kind.

quote: I have ? Suffering from your old reading comprehension problem, again ?

Hardly.
You remain the number one European apologist.
Push your morality somewhere else, that kid stuff cuts no ice with me.

quote: Bit difficult. If I could, what exactly are you going to do ? Be a big bad macho-man and beat me up ?

First thing you got right.
Easy to be a smart-ass from an ocean away, isn't it?

quote: Oh I think I have.

You think wrong.

quote: Hmm... maybe it's really time you stop playing the village idiot.

I would never take your role.

	21-01-2002 21:43									#188
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Well, surely Americans would be angry if their soldiers were to be tried in a military tribunal... America has been angry about that before and yelled at other nations.

However, this is war, and although america should give the people a military tribunal, i feel that it should be televised to show people that it wasnt completely a kangaroo court, etc.

That way it would seem to be that the US had evidence on them.

	21-01-2002 21:47									#189
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"...I still fail to see how Al Qaeda fighters meet any of the conditions laid forth out in the Convention."

- Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

Whether some of the militarily organised units were part of the Taleban army depends on the command structures.

- Members of other militias...

Considering their conduct against rules of war, questionable. Although it is unclear how a breakdown of following those rules affects individuals.

MtG said: "They're screwed under 4A(1) because they were not an integrated part of the Taleban, had autonomous command structures, bore no recognizable marks or disctinctions, etc."

I don't know whether those "brigades" or what they called them had some form of insignia. I also do not know the exact command structures. And it is another issue whether with autonomous command structures, we'd have two parties to the conflict on the other side - Taliban and Queda.

"However, it is questionable if they will actually appear before such a tribunal as the US has said that it has no such doubts about thier status."

As I said, the "terrorist" has no claim. Tricky is the issue wjhether a terrorist being part of something resembling a military unit would be a POW. But as long as the US respects some basic rules in this, it is a dispute about the emperor's beard.

	21-01-2002 21:54									#190
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Chris, I don't know why you insist on being a Dodal here, but for what it's worth....

"Your opinions are left wing tripe, of the worst kind."

If I'm a leftist, than your position in the political spectrum is a bit brownish.

"Easy to be a smart-ass from an ocean away, isn't it?"

Indeed. Especially with the Pacific being so wide....

"I would never take your role."

Becoming a normal person by quitting the village idiot persona ? Sad.

	21-01-2002 21:57									#191
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Well, surely Americans would be angry if their soldiers were to be tried in a military tribunal... America has been angry about that before and yelled at other nations. However, this is war, and although america should give the people a military tribunal, i feel that it should be televised to show people that it wasnt completely a kangaroo court, etc. That way it would seem to be that the US had evidence on them.

No. What really pisses offsome Americans is that information is still requested from Hanoi 30+ years after troops totally left.
Don't whine to me, for one, about the poor terrorists.

	21-01-2002 23:18									#192
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Does the fact that 'its' been done to you excuse doing 'it' to others? I don't think so.
Stick your head between your legs, and kiss your moral highground goodbye.

	22-01-2002 00:16									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Make that BBC delegation, does not seem to have been other Euros with them.

There wasn't any need for the bum****ing remark, but I'll ignore it. It wasn't the BBC as such, but rather from a statement from MI5 and British military officials who have interviewed the Brits there. What i do find slightly hypocritical is how Mr Walker will be put before a civilian tribunal, while the other captives have to go before a military tribunal. Still different rules for different people I suppose .

	22-01-2002 00:20									#194
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This is what we should do with Al-Qaeda members:
1. Pumping them for information, I don't care whether the method is torture, drugging or bribe.

2. Keep these guys imprisoned until Al-Qaeda is reasonably destroyed. The prospect of staying alive can yield prisoners and defectors.

3. Once we are done with the Al-Qaeda, we have two choices: try them or execute them summarily.

There is no point in throwing out the "human rights" question, the only question needed to be asked is: what is the most beneficial way for us to punish Al-Qaeda?

	22-01-2002 00:22									#195
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue What i do find slightly hypocritical is how Mr Walker will be put before a civilian tribunal, while the other captives have to go before a military tribunal. Still different rules for different people I suppose .

I agree with you here. Walker is a traitor and should be locked up in the same cage as others do.

But there is the possibility that he cut some deal with the authorities by giving out information.

	22-01-2002 00:35									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Does the fact that 'its' been done to you excuse doing 'it' to others? I don't think so.

To what it are you refering to? The daily calls to prayer? The three meals a day? The Korans that have been provided? I'm kind of curious which "it" you are refering to so that we can stop doing it immediately.

What i do find slightly hypocritical is how Mr Walker will be put before a civilian tribunal, while the other captives have to go before a military tribunal. Still different rules for different people I suppose.

He could have been tried by a military tribunal under US law but I don't think that the administration wanted to take the potential heat over that decision.

	22-01-2002 00:50									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "...I still fail to see how Al Qaeda fighters meet any of the conditions laid forth out in the Convention." - Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

Al Qaeda is an autonomous force. Even where Taleban leaders/fighters surrendered, Al Qaeda leaders/fighters continued to fight, not recognizing orders or command authority from the Taleban. This was demonstrated repeatedly.

quote: Whether some of the militarily organised units were part of the Taleban army depends on the command structures.

Answered above

quote: - Members of other militias... Considering their conduct against rules of war, questionable. Although it is unclear how a breakdown of following those rules affects individuals. MtG said: "They're screwed under 4A(1) because they were not an integrated part of the Taleban, had autonomous command structures, bore no recognizable marks or disctinctions, etc." I don't know whether those "brigades" or what they called them had some form of insignia. I also do not know the exact command structures.

None whatsoever. They are recognized in general because they're not Afghanis, they don't speak local languages, and because they shoot at you when they feel like it.

quote: And it is another issue whether with autonomous command structures, we'd have two parties to the conflict on the other side - Taliban and Queda.

So any group of people fighting for whatever reason is a "party to the conflict" under your interpretation of the Geneva Convention?

quote: As I said, the "terrorist" has no claim. Tricky is the issue wjhether a terrorist being part of something resembling a military unit would be a POW. But as long as the US respects some basic rules in this, it is a dispute about the emperor's beard.

We finally agree on something.

	22-01-2002 01:03									#198
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Maybe this isn't the place to ask, but I really hate creating new threads (always seems so egotistical...) and since we are discussing the Geneva convention....

Is there any official definition in the Geneva Convention or anywhere else, which outlines the difference between a 'terrorist' and a 'freedom-fighter'?

	22-01-2002 01:03									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Chris, I don't know why you insist on being a Dodal here, but for what it's worth....

Hardly being such, Roland.
You chose to make it personal, I respond in kind.

quote: If I'm a leftist, than your position in the political spectrum is a bit brownish.

Not at all.
I always go for common sense, I leave politics to your ilk.

quote: Indeed. Especially with the Pacific being so wide....

The Atlantic is closer

quote: Becoming a normal person by quitting the village idiot persona ? Sad.

Very cute, but we both know that village idiot fits a certain lawyer from austria far better.

	22-01-2002 01:06									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Is there any official definition in the Geneva Convention or anywhere else, which outlines the difference between a 'terrorist' and a 'freedom-fighter'?

There are about 30 definitions, that I know of, for the word terrorist. Why do you ask?

	22-01-2002 01:37									#201
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Horsie is just trying to deflect criticism away from his own country.

	22-01-2002 02:31									#202
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat And Horsie, you weren't even in this argument - you're at an all time level of cluelessness. Usually your trolls have some vague resemblance to reality, and occasionally they have some glimmer of a good point to them.

Yeah right - that's why you and your bush lawyer friends have spent over a 100 posts trying to defend the indefensible - and failing miserably.

Keep up the good work Rumpole

(ask the Brits who that is)

	22-01-2002 03:27									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Maybe this isn't the place to ask, but I really hate creating new threads (always seems so egotistical...) and since we are discussing the Geneva convention.... Is there any official definition in the Geneva Convention or anywhere else, which outlines the difference between a 'terrorist' and a 'freedom-fighter'?

No, there isn't. The Geneva convention merely distinguishes who are lawful combatants subject to its protections. Any lawful combatant is subject to its protections, without distinction as to the nature of their role (this doesn't apply to individual crimes, but to the idea whether someone's called a regular member of the armed forces, a member of a militia or volunteer corps, etc.)

"Freedom fighters" is just a term of ideology, as is "terrorist."

	22-01-2002 03:31									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Yeah right - that's why you and your bush lawyer friends have spent over a 100 posts trying to defend the indefensible - and failing miserably. Keep up the good work Rumpole (ask the Brits who that is)

"Defend the indefensible" Yes, calling out prayer times on the PA, giving them access to the red cross, giving foreign diplomatic representatives access to their citizens, giving them food, shelter and medical attention. Oh, and they had "no complaints"

Ohhhhh, they're treated so rough.

Even the Brit government admitted there was nothing to the allegations of abusive treatment. The whiny left can't work with facts, so they have to rely on fiction instead to have something to ***** and grovel about.

Why don't we discuss Australian policy towards aboriginals next. There's some real tragedy.

	22-01-2002 03:57									#205
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Nah - forget the aborigines - unless you want to talk about the native Americans

You should have targeted refugees. We have 70 who have sewn their lips together in protest at conditions in our detention centres. Over a hundred are on hunger strike.

The big difference here is that we Australians don't usually feel the need to jump to the defence of our Government. We are much more likely to join in the attack.

So why do you feel the need to defend your Government? I find that a very weird American trait. Next minute you'll be saying all Government is bad

	22-01-2002 04:12									#206
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"So why do you feel the need to defend your Government?"

In this case, it's an easy defense. These measures are broadly popular and, after some simple fact checking, seem reasonable.

For instance, it's probably cowardice toward necessities that make Australians less likely to defend their government.

	22-01-2002 04:16									#207
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Well all I'll say is don't give your prisoners sewing kits

	22-01-2002 04:17									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Well all I'll say is don't give your prisoners sewing kits

Why would we give them weapons with which to attack thier captors with?

	22-01-2002 04:38									#209
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But my biggest complaint is that you haven't given them a vaulting horse. HTF do you expect them to dig tunnels if you don't give them sporting equipment?

	22-01-2002 04:44									#210
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I don't think its very good that all the gaurds are named schultz.