21-01-2002 09:47									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I recall now what the Cuba situation reminds me of now - it was those pathetic images of U.S. Teheran embassy staff in 1979. Hooded, hand cuffed, being led around by revolutionary guards. I remember the quite right howls of protest at that too

You're overstating your claims here. Chaining prisoners is common when they are being moved. And the terrorists with hoods over their heads; those pictures were said to have been taken when they first arrived at the base.

Once again, you're attempting to equate terrorists with civilians or people who have done no wrong.

	21-01-2002 10:02									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Kyle Once again, you're attempting to equate terrorists with civilians or people who have done no wrong.

Which is exactly what you are doing until proven otherwise. I wonedr how many millions one of them would get for a wrongful detention suit.

	21-01-2002 10:08									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I recall now what the Cuba situation reminds me of now - it was those pathetic images of U.S. Teheran embassy staff in 1979. Hooded, hand cuffed, being led around by revolutionary guards.

nice case of selected memory.
How many of that embassey staff were hiding in caves, shooting at people, how many had taken an oath to a terror organization, how many said they would kill a guard before they left...
The answer is none.
Not even a nice try for you on this, it's just another reminder of the barbarism of the Islamic world towards innocents.

quote: I remember the quite right howls of protest at that too

Not from Europe, as I recall.

	21-01-2002 10:10									#154
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The concept of two wrongs don't make a right is really lost on some of you people.

I Understand - its a complex concept

	21-01-2002 10:43									#155
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Yeh, they must have been caught unawares on their way to a Boy Scout meeting.

	21-01-2002 10:46									#156
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I wouldn't laugh if I were you - many of those prisoners have funds and come from Western countries. The lawyers will be lining up to take on cases. In fact they already are.

	21-01-2002 10:49									#157
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Horsie, you still haven't said exactly why they are legally entitled the the treatment that would be required if they met the definition of POW's.

	21-01-2002 10:53									#158
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"The lawyers will be lining up to take on cases. In fact they already are."

Bring it on. I'm sure our lawyers would be willing to take any money offered to them. I doubt a one will do it on a contingency basis.

Last edited by DanS on 21-01-2002 at 10:59

	21-01-2002 11:06									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse So you would be quite happy for U.S. P.O.Ws to be held in those conditions - not afforded P.O.W. status, called terrorists, interrograted, chained, suffering sensory deprivation, held in solitary confinement, unable to speak, paraded before the media like animals?

If AMerican P.O.W.'s had always been treated as well as these terrorists, I'd have nothing to say.
Your comparison is astounding, driven by ignorance.

	21-01-2002 11:13									#160
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I am not ignorant of the way U.S. Pows have been treated. I'm just surprised you are meting out similar treatment.

And we haven't even got onto the sedating of the prisoners. Now where and to whom did that happen before?????

	21-01-2002 11:16									#161
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Similar treatment?? You must be joking.
Sedating these guys that are so brain dead that they will willingly pepetrate suicide bombings isn't outside the scope of reason.
Sorry you can't understand that fact.

	21-01-2002 11:18									#162
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Of course I should take a long hard look at my stance on this issue considering My grandfather was a Nazi POW in the USA..


But I don't know, he was part of an enlisted army.

	21-01-2002 11:19									#163
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In one post angry, in another laughing. Speaking of treatment, I think he needs some medical attention.

	21-01-2002 11:26									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse And we haven't even got onto the sedating of the prisoners.

Only a few prisoner, that were highly agitated or frantic during tranportation, were sedated. Would you or anyone else want to be a an aircraft for many hours with someone who was freaking out? your are are dumb as a horse sometimes.

	21-01-2002 11:48									#165
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Surprised to see you believe everything you read Lefty

	21-01-2002 12:50									#166
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Ya......I dont know.

But then again my grandfather was a conscript and took an oath to defend germany (in france ) and was, without a doubt, a POW....Al-Queda are classified as an organization like the Mafia. (Right?)

	21-01-2002 13:48									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Which is exactly what you are doing until proven otherwise. I wonedr how many millions one of them would get for a wrongful detention suit.

Every one of those prisoners was captured in war, interrogated repeatedly, and those found to be leaders or to have substantial intelligence data turned over to the US.

Not one of them even has a basis for suing, or doing anything else.

As far as sedating them, I think the C-141B can achieve an angle of attack of about 26 degrees to drop cargo from the rear cargo door in flight. (gotta remember my Pathfinder data)

Maybe instead of sedating them, it'd have been better to strap in the guards, and tell the prisoners that one of them so much as sneezes in flight, the pilot is going to climb out, the loadmaster is going to open that rear cargo door, and we're going to send them on a quick little ride?

Actually, they might have liked that idea, because they could convince themselves they were dying for Allah, and assure themselves that they wouldn't reveal any damaging intel on their buddies.

So **** 'em, we sedated their miserable worthless asses to get them halfway around the world alive and in one piece. How bad we are.

Just got to have something to whine about, huh Horsie?

	21-01-2002 13:50									#168
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So, what is the problem with the current treatment ? If it is incorrect, please specify. If your beef is lack of comfort, cry me an ocean.

And to the bush (Bush?) lawyer.... while the thread about the legal side of this died down, I find you repeating the nationality concept (false) and the mercenary claim (disputed at best), and the signatory thing (uhm.. customary law, anyone?). I think it's Bush lawyer, then... Consulting for Ashcroft now ?

Your Vanilla terrorist won't qualify as a POW, but parts of Al Quaeda could have had combatant status in Afghanistan. Which, again, in no way rules out trying them for terrorist acts. The entire debate is quite moot apart for

a) some legalese brain****ing (fine with me ),
b) for defeatist whimps like Chris & co to feel safer by being oh so tough and harsh.

	21-01-2002 14:29									#169
	Re: I wonder how Americans would feel if their soldiers were kept like the Al Qaeda POW's Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Have you seen that set up in Cuba? They are keeping the prisoners in what looks like dog kennels. Imagine if American soldiers were held like that by Taliban. The U.S. media would be screaming. Just one photo of a blind folded and chained U.S. soldier would be enough. This is really hurting U.S. credibility around the world. We know what is being fought against but one wonders what is being fought for! So much for the human rights of the POWS! The U.S. btw, is now the only Western country that still claims these prisoners aren't POW's. The U.S. is looking ever more ridiculous claiming otherwise.

What did you expected from them Horse? They preaching democracy and human rights all the time but they do the opposite always...

	21-01-2002 15:35									#170
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Well I think I won this argument hands down.

	21-01-2002 15:36									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Well I think I won this argument hands down.

Yes but you think this about every arguement. Even those you're not involved in.

	21-01-2002 15:45									#172
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What about taking the moral high ground?

Why can't the US government stop being jackasses and say "We will punish you but won't stoop to your level"? It's a LITTLE bit hypocritical to have this sort of treatment before trial, especially in a country that is proud of it's justice.

Show the world you DO listen to Int'l opinion and aren't as of the "America vs World" attitude as some think. Show us you are just and maintain level-headedness at this extreme time and it will prove the doubters wrong. Surely you don't need to give those with anti-American feelings even MORE ammo?

And is the US public slamming this action as the rest of the world is?

	21-01-2002 16:36									#173
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Yes, we can learn from how you Brits treated Irish aboard the Titanic, for example. SO humane, the Brits are.

Ahhh - it all become clear. Now we know where Sloww gets his historical info....

	21-01-2002 17:22									#174
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This is a rather confusing one (your whole post)

quote: Originally posted by Roland I find you repeating the nationality concept (false)

Why false when Article 4 of the Geneva Convention specifically distinguishes combatants belonging to a "Party to the conflict?" If any combatant in the area of hostilities fighting for anyone is fighting for a "Party to the conflict" then why the distinction?

quote: and the mercenary claim (disputed at best),

What distinguishing marks identifiable at a distance did they wear, and what is the evidence that they followed the "laws and customs of war", just for a couple of examples directly from the language of Article 4?

quote: Your Vanilla terrorist won't qualify as a POW, but parts of Al Quaeda could have had combatant status in Afghanistan.

Taleban, yes, al Qaeda, good luck.

quote: The entire debate is quite moot apart for a) some legalese brain****ing (fine with me ),

Aren't essentially all debates here in that category? And isn't the sudden European whining because of a half-assed article in a Brit tabloid accompanied by a few photos equally moot?

quote: b) for defeatist whimps like Chris & co to feel safer by being oh so tough and harsh.

WTF is this about? The leftist hand-wringer set was first whining about "another Vietnam" then whining about "becoming targets of terrorism by supporting the US" then whining about "massive" Afghan civilian casualties, now whining about "inhuman" treatment of al Qaeda prisoners in a temporary facility on a tropical island.

Acting "oh so tough and harsh" - bullshit. In contrast, say, to the leftist hand-wringers who whine about nothing. These are the same types who whine in other threads about how the death penalty is so wrong, but their prisons are so mean and nasty that life in prison is really a harsher punishment, so that they can pretend to be all tough.

Oh, BTW, "MrWhereItsAt" - why don't you go put your life on the line guarding these *******s who are sworn to kill you any chance they get, and see how securely you want to handle those prisoners.

The US isn't "slamming" this action, because we don't take a couple of photos and then buy into the fantasy rhetoric of some Brit tabloid about "sensory deprivation" and whatnot.

And Horsie, you weren't even in this argument - you're at an all time level of cluelessness. Usually your trolls have some vague resemblance to reality, and occasionally they have some glimmer of a good point to them.

	21-01-2002 17:42									#175
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MichaeltheGreat,

British tabloids notwithstanding (I hadn't heard about the sensory deprivation bit), don't you think there may be something to be learned from the fact that there has been a huge international outcry about this issue, despie the fact that almost every country was quick to jump on the bandwagon and agree with the idea of bringing the architects of 9/11 to justice?

I also don't believe that the soldiers guarding these prisoners can be in serious danger from them - they are (presumably) separated, isolated from their country (where they would have local knowledge advantages), and in utterly controlled and supervised conditions anyway, and any jailer worth his salt would have insured that there is nil chance of them getting any weapons, or of the captors being in ANY danger, especially with this sort of attention. There must be a way to do that without the extreme treatment that has come to light.

I just think this could have been handled better, that's all.

And are you saying that in the US, ppl are largely HAPPY with their country being associated with this sort of treatment? What sort of provision does your legal system have for treatment of the worst criminals, traitors and, perhaps what this group should be - war criminals?

	21-01-2002 17:50									#176
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"This is a rather confusing one (your whole post)"

Just keeping up with this thread.

"If any combatant in the area of hostilities fighting for anyone is fighting for a "Party to the conflict" then why the distinction?"

Not just fighting for it, but fighting as a combatant. "belonging" does not refer to nationality. This would be odd indeed. Take Alsatians in WW2 - French citizens under german civil rule (in violation of the rules of war) being drafted into the Wehrmacht, and then they would not be POWs when caught by say the US ?

"What distinguishing marks identifiable at a distance did they wear, and what is the evidence that they followed the "laws and customs of war", just for a couple of examples directly from the language of Article 4?"

How does that relate to mercenaries ?

"Taleban, yes, al Qaeda, good luck."

Seems some fought as military units. Whether they qualify depends ia on the things you listed above, with command structure another issue. Al quaeda fighting alongside the Taleban could qualify for POW status - I fail to see a reason to rule this out right away.

"And isn't the sudden European whining because of a half-assed article in a Brit tabloid accompanied by a few photos equally moot?"

So far I'd say yes.

"Acting "oh so tough and harsh" - bullshit. In contrast, say, to the leftist hand-wringers who whine about nothing."

I don't care about the leftist whiners because they can barely do damage on this issue. The rightist whiners however are working towards western defeat though by encouraging abandoning some key principles here. When Rumsie talks about "severe terrorists" or so, he is acting as prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner. It's also the logic that for domestic measures, it's a war, but when that is inconvenient, it no longer is. Partially.

In the broad debate directly after Sept 11th, the "let's move 500.000 ground troops in there" rightist BS was also politically more dangerous than the "another Vietnam" cries.

"These are the same types who whine in other threads about how the death penalty is so wrong, but their prisons are so mean and nasty that life in prison is really a harsher punishment, so that they can pretend to be all tough."

Do I really need to countercount all the rightist BS spread here ?

	21-01-2002 18:58									#177
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Looks like they're perfectly happy and well treated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk...000/1773143.stm

	21-01-2002 19:07									#178
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Well then. That took the wind out of MY sails.

NO! It must be EVIL BBC propaganda! Damn that diabolical Auntie Beeb...

	21-01-2002 19:11									#179
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Looks like they're perfectly happy and well treated. http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk...000/1773143.stm

Well damn, you ruined the whole thread. Now some of the posters here will have to just ignore statements like

quote: The prime minister "thinks people should not rush to judgement but should establish the facts.

That may be asking too much of some of them.

quote: He said the three suspects "get three meals a day, including a "pre-packed Islamic meal for lunch", as much water as they need and daily medical checks. The Red Cross is arranging for them to have copies of the Koran," the prime minister's spokesman added. "They have also been provided with washing materials and calls to prayer are being broadcast over the camp public address system."

What more do you want for them besides setting them free?

	21-01-2002 21:08									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Roland b) for defeatist whimps like Chris & co to feel safer by being oh so tough and harsh.

I have no idea where this came from, but it is certainly your most assinine statement I have yet seen.

Defeatest?

What a laugh, you left wing painty waist.

You have b1tched and whined like the little girl you are from the first.

Whimp?

Say that to my face, you little punk.

You just made my special list, moron.
From this point on, I will treat all you say as sh1t, cause you just showed me what's up with you.

You go change your underwear whenever a terrorist sneezes, we will do something about it, as always.

You have no concept of the Islamic world, just listen to what they say, the contempt they hold you your kind.
Mercy and kindness mean nothing, and acting in that fashion helped bring about 9/11.
Force is what they understand, and that is all, but since you all love to project your childish morality on others, you fail to see it.

People like you caused the holocaust, the Nazis, Stalinists, all the ills of this world, because you stood there and debated while they killed.

You sir, are defeatism personified.