09-02-2002 19:09									#31
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All this bouncing has harmed you in the head, paiktis22...

In fact all people are somewhat racist. Nothern Europeans are racist, Greeks are racist, Chinese are racist, Africans are racist. Even gypsies, who are shunned by every sedentary nation in the old world, they are racist too.

If there's to be guilt about it (and there has to be guilt if there is discrimination, exploitation or crime involved) then if falls on everyone's back. Still, people are guilty about the things they say and do themselves and not about what their nation or race does.

So please, get out of your complex and do something about the victims of racism near you. Go to the nearest immigrant concentration camp and protest.

	09-02-2002 21:51									#32
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Bounce, bounce, come on bounce

of course it's an ugly topic. it is a taboo topic too.
so what if it's ugly? that means it hurts. is there a law that says we must shy away from such topics?

Half of my life I've lived in northern europe and while there was no latent racism towards me I could clearly see it against vast groups of people. I was young and didn't understand much but when I went there again as a grown up I could see it even more clearly.

Greeks are racist too but we have a different approach. we are not the same. on the racist topic on a personal level (not on a state-authorities level) we are salvaged from racism.

in northern europe it is ingraned in their mentality, it's plain to see.

almost every responce in this thread was to throw stones in order to hide the hands.
here's a fine example my MacTbone

quote: Alright, if people want to blanket North Europeans as racist, then we should follow through. Greeks are hairy and smelly. Arabs are Muslim and fundamentalist. Americans all carry guns.

not very conveincing. most of the answers followed the same motive.

tough subjects, as this ugly thread, should be brought forward for gnosis kai symorfosis


there is a latent racism that dwelves on a superiority complex and skin color. I think it's silly not to recognise it.

	09-02-2002 22:11									#33
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quote: Originally posted by orange By you making broud generalizations about "Northern Europeans" aren't you really being racist yourself That's not fair, judge people as who they are and not by their race religion color sex nationality etc.

That's true orange. There is a fine line to walk here.
But we can't just close our eyes to reality and not touch subjects because we "fear" we could be labeled as "racists" or whatever.

It's better to say things as they are without encancerating ourselves to politically correct rules. that actually produce more harm than good since they create taboo -untouchable subjetcs and in fact let these trends develop freely and flourish.

	09-02-2002 22:34									#34
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latent?

I thought they were pretty open about it.

	09-02-2002 22:44									#35
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quote: [SIZE=1] not very conveincing. most of the answers followed the same motive. tough subjects, as this ugly thread, should be brought forward for gnosis kai symorfosis there is a latent racism that dwelves on a superiority complex and skin color. I think it's silly not to recognise it.

You where saying it like that was only or more in northern europe then the rest of teh world, so showing that it also happens in other regions proofs you wrong. Because it shows the truth that it is over the whole world and not just northern europe.

With the right retoric can you proof all regions as being very racistic.

In Servia do you feel as German also a very big latent racism towards you, it's not because it is not towards greeks taht it doesn't exists.

I don't deny that tehre is some latent racism in europe, but I deny that it is more then the rest of the world.

	10-02-2002 01:19									#36
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I like Greeks.

Especially the ones behind the bar in Aya Napa.

	10-02-2002 01:34									#37
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Loud Music, perhaps you could enlighten us with your sharp intellect and intelligence?

	10-02-2002 01:39									#38
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo Also couldn't Musolini be considered one of the biggest racists ever? Sending Jews to the German concentration camps looks me rather racistic.

Notice that there seemed to be a discrepancy between the number of Italian Jews who were killed and the number in Italy before the war. Italy, through their societal apathy, saved significant numbers of Jews although the Government co-operated with the Germans.

The very fact that you call him racist by comparing him to norther Europe destroys your argument. Unless this was intentional irony.

	10-02-2002 01:39									#39
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No.

	10-02-2002 03:19									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Notice that there seemed to be a discrepancy between the number of Italian Jews who were killed and the number in Italy before the war. Italy, through their societal apathy, saved significant numbers of Jews although the Government co-operated with the Germans. The very fact that you call him racist by comparing him to norther Europe destroys your argument. Unless this was intentional irony.

I'm was not saying that the south is more racist the the north or any similar racist statement.

But it was with a racistic agaenda that musolini got elected and his cooperation with Hitler slowed down the allied victory and was by that responisble for many more jews then those deported to Germany from there.
Maybe was Germany worser the Italy but it was not better then nortern Europe as a whole(about what we are talking here). Who includes the Brits, without them would all jews be killed in europe(except the few who had enough money to flee). In Nortern europe where there also various groups who tried to save jews who where unlike Italy liked by the majority of the population

I'm not saying here that Italy was worser, just equally worse. Saying that one regions is more racist then others is simply nonsese. I can use the same retoric that is now used against nortern Europe say that the Balkan nations/Rwanda/Lebanon/Israël/USA are latent racists, it's just nonsense.

	10-02-2002 04:15									#41
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kolpo that's because you are unable to tell the difference.

Mousolini's Italy was fascist not rascist. BIG difference with northern european racism. There cannot exist a racism in Italy where half the population is white and half darkskinned.


South europe is not racist the way the north is. that's a northern white disease.



che

quote: latent? I thought they were pretty open about it.

Most of the responces here prove it. Racist and proud of it.

	10-02-2002 04:23									#42
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo I don't deny that tehre is some latent racism in europe, but I deny that it is more then the rest of the world.

you should have said northern europe. not europe.

there is a difference. If someone goes to Afganistan or Turkey or Greece or Italy he will not be regarded with latent racism unless he comes from a hostile country.

if someone goes to northern europe then by default he will be regarded with racism even though there is no national/ethnic reason to do so.


that's latent racism ingraned deep down the northern european mentality.
and that's why northern europe is more racist than anyone else.

and I beleive that a part from practices northern european countries were perfectly capable of nucturing a nazist state like germany did. because they are the same. germany just got lucky. it is the same everywhere else in northern europe.

and this disease can be seen today as strong as ever. white skin is all that matters in the end of the day. and the northern european racist subconcious "pride" that comes from it and is expressed even if they want it or not. it's almost tribal. not so civilized I'd say.

	10-02-2002 04:49									#43
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According to a study the Greek youth is the most xenophobic of all EU countries

	10-02-2002 04:54									#44
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true. 26% want all immigrants to "go back from where they came from"

that percentage in France is just 6%.

that's because most of the immigrants are albanians who are associated with KLA and its intention to assault Greece after Fyrom and also because of their part in Serbia. so there is a reason and you can't classify it under racism.

we are talking about northern european racism which is genuine since there shouldn't be any reason for it to exist. and we are not talking about immigrants but about being northern and being white. only few people had the courage to acknowledge that this latent racist disease exist.
most, like you, just throw stones to cover your hands.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 10-02-2002 at 05:00

	10-02-2002 05:01									#45
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I think it is an inherent part of groups of people to feel superior to other groups of people. The Dutch feel (are? ) superior to the Belgians, the English feel superior to the French etc. Similarly I bet the Greeks feel superior to the Albanians, or the Turks to the Greeks. The Americans feel superior to everyone else.

I think it is part of what bonds a society together. I am not saying it is good, I am not saying it is clever, but it probably part of our makeup.

Like George Bernard Shaw said: "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it".

	10-02-2002 05:03									#46
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 that's because most of the immigrants are albanians who are associated with KLA and its intention to assault Greece after Fyrom and also because of their part in Serbia. so there is a reason and you can't classify it under racism.

Yep, and all Northern European immigrants are criminals.

	10-02-2002 05:06									#47
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue I think it is an inherent part of groups of people to feel superior to other groups of people. The Dutch feel (are? ) superior to the Belgians, the English feel superior to the French etc. Similarly I bet the Greeks feel superior to the Albanians, or the Turks to the Greeks. The Americans feel superior to everyone else. I think it is part of what bonds a society together. I am not saying it is good, I am not saying it is clever, but it probably part of our makeup.

true, greeks feel superior to anyone else, as do most countries.

What you say is nationalistic pride. it is different from racism which is defined by the northern european white identity.



mercator

quote: Yep, and all Northern European immigrants are criminals.

This is not the same. Imagine something like Poland having 1 million german immigrants after WW2.

	10-02-2002 05:17									#48
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 true, greeks feel superior to anyone else, as do most countries. What you say is nationalistic pride. it is different from racism which is defined by the northern european white identity.

And a superiorty complex can turn into racism if the people you feel superior over are of a different skin colour.

	10-02-2002 05:22									#49
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So, Northern Europeans have NO cause to not like Italians or Asians? I beg to differ. Remember the Roman Empire? Which subjugated most of Europe and fought with Germanic trbes. Then there were the Huns which forced a mass migration, which contributed to the fall of the Roman Empire. Then there are the Muslim peoples who took over Ibera and were barely stopped by the french. Or the Muslim pirates which attacked in the meditaranean.

You can usually find a very old excuse for animosity.

	10-02-2002 05:24									#50
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue And a superiorty complex can turn into racism if the people you feel superior over are of a different skin colour.

and yet this can only be found in people which are "white". maybe because being "white" is being "superior" according to them. and it is also noteworthy that this does not happen to all "white" northern european countries but to some...

	10-02-2002 05:25									#51
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This must be a joke. It simply must be on of those "Hey you are Northern Europeans, so you are racists" jokes.

Especially funny was the remarks Scandinavians aren't (as) racist. Perhaps when foreigners come to visit, they welcome them. But when they try to settle, they'll cry for the government to forbid that not less loud or maybe even louder as anybody else in Northern Europe, especially obvious for Danes or Norwegians (who shoot even border-crossing wolves .. much to the disliking of the Swedish).

Of course there is xenophobia, but xenophobia is not the same thing with racism. Especially since already a significant part of Northern Europe's population (and citizenry by passport and nationality) are not of the biological race that could be referred as Northern European (best described as "white"). Another example: the Danes are harshly trying to avoid having foreigners of any race move into their country, whether it is a white German (so this isn't likely to be a case of racism) or anybody else. That is xenophobia, the fear of strangers and exotic things from different cultures, nations, etc. Xenophobia is actually a widespread phenomenon on this planet, it seems to be part of the human nature. It is not identical with racism, because you may as well be pretty much more familiar with a person of another skin color, when he/she is raised in your cultural tradition, than with a "same-colored" stranger that doesn't even speak your language...

Oh, how I enjoy to be picky about definitions.

	10-02-2002 05:30									#52
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quote: Oh, how I enjoy to be picky about definitions.

yes but you are right too. racism is not identical to xenophobia (greek word xenos=strange,stranger,alien - phobia=fear)

also we are not talking about immigration or peoples' reaction but about the average northern european and how he, on a personal level, acts with racism based solely on his white skin and his feeling of "superiority"even if he does so subconsciously but it shows nevertheless. that's what differantiates him from other forms of "phobias" and from south europe and makes him latently racist. a white racist.

	10-02-2002 05:33									#53
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And you also have to take into account that the Netherlands is a lot more multicultural than most "Southern European" countries. Also that extreme rightwing parties have far less of a foothold in most northern european countries (bar eastern germany, but that's mostly because of disenfranchised youths that have no jobs, and are looking for someone to blame) than in Southern Europe (take the Liga Nord in Italy, they are inherently racist).

I agree that there's some tension between different population groups in England, like during the Bradford riots over the summer, but I again think it is more a case of disenfranchised youths with too much time on their hands, and who are spoiling for fight. Here it is frontpage national news if a rightwing extremist gets elected to the town council, in Greece?

	10-02-2002 05:41									#54
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lightblue
in Greece there isn't even a extreme right wing party, let alone a racist mayor or other public functionnaire but there was a case of a xenophobic mayor and there are senators who are clearly racist yes.

Also you have ligua of the North in northen Italy. (which is almost a different country - if you've been there)
meanwhile you have
austria heider
germany neonazis
denmark dens peoples' party
britain torries (why, yes)

and yet this is still not what we are talking about.

we are talking about latent racism of white northern europeans on a personal level towards people who are not like them. a clear group definition and identity of "us" vs. the darkskinned, dirty, inferior "them" and a racist mentality to go with it. and this is not only about countries but about citizens of northern european countries too who are not "all white".

that has little to do with immigration, unemployement, desillusioned youths etc


it is deeply rotted in northern european mentality and it transcents and inflicts all social classes from the uneducated to the university prefessors. (hence the difference with southern europe, turkey and north africa at least)

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 10-02-2002 at 06:00

	10-02-2002 06:04									#55
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quote: Greece: Tolerating Intolerance In 2000, two surveys -carried out by the EU and a Greek state institution- confirmed the gravity of the problem of xenophobia in Greece. The EU's spring 2000 Eurobarometer survey showed that 38% of Greeks are disturbed by the presence of foreigners ("citizens with other nationalities") in Greece. The EU average was 15% and the second highest percentage of xenophobia was among the Danes (24%). Even more revealingly the same survey showed that, while 64% of EU citizens consider it a good thing for any society to be made up of people from different races, religions, and cultures, only 36% shared that view in Greece (the second lowest percentage was 52% for Austrians), with 52% of Greeks disagreeing with it (vs. 26% for EU citizens as a whole and 35% for the second highest percentage for Belgians). Moreover, a spring 1999 survey, carried out by the state National Center for Social Research (EKKE), showed that, on a composite index, 47%-54% of junior high and senior high school pupils, their parents and their teachers are xenophobic. It is obvious that Greece faces serious intolerance, which is met with prevailing tolerance. The most characteristic case was the complete and uninhibited pogrom against 150 Albanians in the village of Loutra, Lesbos, last August. Its Greek residents, enraged by the attitude of some Albanians who had a violent argument with a bar owner and some Greek patrons, asked all Albanian residents of the village to leave it within a week. Although the ultimatum became widely known, no one -not even the prosecutor- intervened to protect the Albanians who ended up leaving a village where many had been living for a few years. No legal action was taken against the perpetrators even after the fact, while their activity was regrettably condoned a week later by the President of the Republic. That was not an "isolated incident:" -the government's and the Greek delegation to the OSCE's favorite phrase. Over this and previous years, Albanians and even more Roma, were threatened with or actually the victims of pogroms, because of being allegedly collectively prone to crime, or a threat to public health, without anyone ever been punished for such racist acts. GHM feels sorry for such events, as it feels sorry that the Greek Foreign Ministry scorns related criticism in front of international institutions like these OSCE meetings, making it a tacit accomplice to such hideous acts.

If people can get away with such acts and remain unpunished, there's no need for an extreme right party in Greece.

What's your excuse for Greek racism towards Roma? Are they conspiring to destroy the mighty, ancient state of Greece like the Turks and Albanians? Or are they just darkskinned, dirty and inferior ?

	10-02-2002 06:11									#56
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 This is not the same. Imagine something like Poland having 1 million german immigrants after WW2.

According to the CIA World Factbook, Holland and Germany have both almost 10% in ethnic minorities, while Greece only has 2%...

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 and yet this can only be found in people which are "white". maybe because being "white" is being "superior" according to them. and it is also noteworthy that this does not happen to all "white" northern european countries but to some...

Racism is not just a "white" thing. There is quite a bit of racism in Africa as well (between darker/lighter blacks). Apart from the obvious example (Rwanda) I donīt know much about this though.

	10-02-2002 06:17									#57
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Assur, you are again throwing stones to cover your hands.

you are also funnily missinformed.

even if all of what this artcile says is true (which it isn't, it is ommiting serious aspects which I will tell you about later on)
this doesn't change the northern european white latent racism in any way.


now some quick pointers about the article
1. two albanians beat with stones and metal bars some young greeks and sent them to the hospital. one of them barely escaped being thrown into a coma and were all horribly disfigured, bones crushed etc. that happened in a very small and closed society and thus the ultimatum. I don't justify it and that was the xenophobic nmayor I was talking about but on the other hand I don't like ommissions

2. Roma, or Gypsies. In the suburb of Zefiri the neighborhoods of gypsies are the number one spot for illegal trafficing of heroin and other drugs. These are criminals which are heavily armed and use their own families as protection. that's a place where cops fear to trend.


These are the facts that were ommited.

However, this doesn;t change what I said in the slightest.

Albanians are white. Gypsies are darkskinned.

We are talking about northern european "white" latent racism to anyone who is not white like them. Inflicted with that are even university professors.
the "white" racism.

Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 10-02-2002 at 06:31

	10-02-2002 06:26									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Assur Are they conspiring to destroy the mighty, ancient state of Greece like the Turks and Albanians?

BTW, just Greece would suffice, thank you. I doubt anyone would be thrilled with excitement if his country, whatever it was, was threatened. Of course, you, from the serenity of your couch, can always dissmiss such positions as paranoid. You are far from the balkans.

quote: According to the CIA World Factbook, Holland and Germany have both almost 10% in ethnic minorities, while Greece only has 2%...

the CIA FACT book is full of errors However in this matter it stands correct.

Yet the latest Census showed 1.2 millions of immigrants on a population of 11 million (these are not ethnic minorities). and this is also irrelevant to what we are saying I'm afraid.

quote: Racism is not just a "white" thing. There is quite a bit of racism in Africa as well (between darker/lighter blacks). Apart from the obvious example (Rwanda) I donīt know much about this though.

and yet don;t you find it strange that it is the same principle...?

	10-02-2002 06:31									#59
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 1. two albanians beat with stones and metal bars some young greeks and sent them to the hospital. one of them barely escaped being thrown into a coma and were all horribly disfigured, bones crushed etc. that happened in a very small and closed society and thus the ultimatum. I don't justify it and that was the xenophobic nmayor I was talking about but on the other I don't like ommissions

This doesnīt change anything. In any case, an entire community is judged on the behaviour of a few individuals.

quote: 2. Roma, or Gypsies. In the suburb of Zefiri the neighborhoods of gypsies are the number one spot for illegal trafficing of heroin and other drugs. These are criminals which are heavily armed and use their own families as protection. that's a place where cops fear to trend.

How is this different from the immigrants in Northern Europe? It is a fact that the crime rates among them are much higher than among the "whites". But does that mean we have a right to condemn all of them?

	10-02-2002 06:32									#60
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 and yet don;t you find it strange that it is the same principle...?

Edit: You mean skin colour? Itīs simply because skin colour is the most obvious feature of a human being.
Iīm pretty sure that if you would compare different types of apples. The first thing you notice is their colour (and shape).