14-02-2002 02:21									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I say get the bastard for life. His actions were direct violations of international law, and I think for once, we should say the genocide is wrong.

Isnīt genocide always wrong? Or is it just when itīs committed by so-called "socialists"? Is this really what you mean, Imran?

	14-02-2002 02:34									#32
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paiktis, donīt you think that Milosevic should answer for his crimes against humanity? He is responsible, directly or indirectly, for some pretty awful acts of violence. I agree that the US, as usual, has their dirty hands in much of this, but Milosevic didnīt exactly need any help in his etnic cleansing.

If we compare this to Turkey, wouldnīt you want to see Ecevit tried for warmongering, etnic cleansing and just being generally unpleasent?

	14-02-2002 03:14									#33
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I tried to study this subject (that war) some time ago and i found it very complicated. It's not black and white.
But still i find milo kind of gay. He's not a good person.
But i found NATO-actions also kind of gay.
Everybody in there was kind of gay. No one ruled. It's a matter of who was the greatest, king of gay. I think milo was.

	14-02-2002 03:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave Why did they disregard article 53?

Because they let sentimentality overcome the good sense and respect for international law that Europeans usually prize so highly in thier zeal to become the air force for a dope dealing, terrorist army formenting rebellion in a sovereign state.

quote: After Croatia and Bosnia, they should have stayed out of Kosovo and watched another couple of hundred thousands displaced and thousands killed?

Considering the fact that the bombing made the humanitarian situation, yes. If that was truely what they cared about.

quote: If Milosevic wanted to stop the clensing and signed the Ramboulet agreement the bombing would not have happened.

Milosevic was under no legal obligation to sign the Ramboulet agreement and NATO lacked the authority to force the issue.

	14-02-2002 07:11									#35
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Actually, I agree with Imran. I'd rather have had the trial in a different venue (Bosnian, Serbian, or Croatian court w/ death penalty), but Milosevic needs to face justice after what he did in Bosnia and Croatia. 200,000 murdered is an unbelievable number.

	14-02-2002 07:37									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Because the blatant violation of international law that was the NATO Kosovo campaign is not being punished. I think that if you wish to take the credible moral highground in order to pontificate to the rest of the world then you should be more equitable in who you single out for condemnation for violations of international law.

Dino, have you morphed into a different entity? This is such a fair and reasonable -I am tempted to call it enlightened- view that I find it hard to trust my eyes.

	14-02-2002 07:45									#37
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave If Milosevic wanted to stop the clensing and signed the Ramboulet agreement the bombing would not have happened.

Rambouillet was a treaty that no leader of a souvereign state could have signed. It was about Yugoslavia giving up its souvereignity as a state. No one does that without losing a war. Rambouillet was designed to be impossible to accept for the Serbs. It was the same kind of unfair ultimatum we -Austrians- presented to the Serbs in 1914.

Rambouillet was just about giving NATO an excuse to attack. Madeleine Albright wanted to have that war.

	14-02-2002 07:52									#38
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave As for an orchestrated attempt - there was a plan to conquer and that is one of the thing that will be proven Milosevic was a man orcestrating it.

No one can conquer his own country. That they contested the breakup of Yugoslavia is an entirely different thing. Had Germany and the US not -very prematurely- recognized the new entities, it would have been seen as the civil war it really was. Milosevic never attacked a foreign country, and as to who was 'right' in the civil war, this issue is at least in doubt.

	14-02-2002 07:57									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You can put your fingers in your ears if you want, but the proof is there, and the Albanians have been slaughtered.

Ehhh, to my knowledge they havenīt yet found any victims that were

-clearly Albanian,
-clearly non-combatant,
-clearly not killed by KLA/NATO.

In other words, there is no proof that Albanian civilians have, in fact, been slaughtered by the Yugoslavian Army.

	14-02-2002 08:03									#40
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo By not accepting the by a Democratic referendum created independence of Kroatia and Bosnia had he heavily violated the international laws.

Ehhh, no again. You mix up national/international law. According to Yugoslavian law, the referendums were not legal, and certainly not binding. And international law had nothing to do with it, as long as that was a Yugoslavian issue.

What you say is that Lincoln should have recognized the Confederacy. But it is no surprise he didnīt, and this doesnīt make him a criminal.

	14-02-2002 08:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Ehhh, to my knowledge they havenīt yet found any victims that were -clearly Albanian, -clearly non-combatant, -clearly not killed by KLA/NATO. In other words, there is no proof that Albanian civilians have, in fact, been slaughtered by the Yugoslavian Army.

Let's review facts:

-There was a Serbian army in Kosovo
-The KLA was not there prior to the appearance of said army (IIRC)
-There are mass graves filled with people in Albanian villages
-Serbs and Albanians don't like each other that much

Yes, I know that the KLA kills Serbs. But the Serbs also kill Albanians en masse.

Also note that the number of people found in mass graves outnumbers the KLA. They weren't all combatants.

I'm not going to call you a revisionist yet, but you're getting pretty close.

	14-02-2002 08:09									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X paiktis, donīt you think that Milosevic should answer for his crimes against humanity?

Kamrat, if Milosevic did commit crimes against humanity, he should certainly answer for them. The question is if that was really the case. The second question is if a tribunal that is paid for by the Soros Foundation and the United States (mostly) and that is not allowed to look into violations committed by NATO should be considered unbiased.

	14-02-2002 08:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Because they let sentimentality overcome the good sense and respect for international law that Europeans usually prize so highly in thier zeal to become the air force for a dope dealing, terrorist army formenting rebellion in a sovereign state.

Perfectly well said. I never thought I would agree with all posts of Dino in a thread. Only one objection: Sentimentality only as far as the general public was concerned. Otherwise, the reasons were

-Germany demonstrating it is again a world power (and building up an area of influence in the Balkans).

-USA generally disliking the fact that Milosevic was

a) independent-minded,
b) a socialist,
c) friendly to Russia

and also wishing to increase its influence in the area with a large new military base in Kosovo (aptly named Bondsteel).

	14-02-2002 08:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit -There are mass graves filled with people in Albanian villages

Ehhh, no, they didnīt find much, if any, evidence of cold-blooded murder committed by the Yugoslavians in Kosovo. This is why there is not a separate trial for Kosovo: Evidence is too thin.

	14-02-2002 08:30									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Ehhh, no, they didnīt find much, if any, evidence of cold-blooded murder committed by the Yugoslavians in Kosovo. This is why there is not a separate trial for Kosovo: Evidence is too thin.

Well they certainly found evidence of large numbers of people having been killed by something. Who do you think it is, then?

	14-02-2002 08:35									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Well they certainly found evidence of large numbers of people having been killed by something.

Apart from KLA/Yugoslavian combatants and bombing victims? Not that I know of.

I know that the prosecution tries to give the impression they found many corpses, but afaIk, they didnīt.

	14-02-2002 08:38									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Apart from KLA/Yugoslavian combatants and bombing victims? Not that I know of. I know that the prosecution tries to give the impression they found many corpses, but afaIk, they didnīt.

2,100 have actually been exhumed. That's quite a few, considering that there may have been as few as 10,000 KLA fighters in total. As well, bombing victims wouldn't end up in mass graves.

Also, something made roughly 1,000,000 ethnic Albanians leave Kosovo.

	14-02-2002 09:00									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit 2,100 have actually been exhumed.

Number may be accurate. But they had talked about tens of thousands victims before. A small scale civil war had been going on in Kosovo for years. The KLA was also known to kill Albanians who cooperated with the state.

quote: Also, something made roughly 1,000,000 ethnic Albanians leave Kosovo.

Make that 100.000. And the reason why they left is in doubt. This is told differently, dependent on the side. Think Palestinians 1948. You get very different reasons why they fled, dependent on whom you ask.

	14-02-2002 09:03									#49
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quote: What you say is that Lincoln should have recognized the Confederacy. But it is no surprise he didnīt, and this doesnīt make him a criminal.

I'd argue that. Some of his generals certainly were (especially Butler and Sherman).

	14-02-2002 09:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Number may be accurate. But they had talked about tens of thousands victims before. A small scale civil war had been going on in Kosovo for years. The KLA was also known to kill Albanians who cooperated with the state. Make that 100.000. And the reason why they left is in doubt. This is told differently, dependent on the side. Think Palestinians 1948. You get very different reasons why they fled, dependent on whom you ask.

I actually think that 1,000,000 is right.

But let me clarify my position.

-The American bombing campaign was badly excecuted - 500 observers in Kosovo would have done the job far better.

-The KLA really suck. As with any guerilla army, they do bad things and are no better than the oppressive regime they were fighting.

-There must have been some initiating event. Slobodan Milosevic being who he is, and the relationship between Kosovars and Serbs being what it is, no doubt the Serbians killed some people.

	14-02-2002 09:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Some of his generals certainly were (especially Butler and Sherman).

Sherman could possibly be considered a war criminal. As to recognizing the Confederacy, historians have argued for a century if the original US were a confederacy (which you can leave) or a federation (which you canīt leave, except in general consensus).

On the other hand, Yugoslavia was certainly a federation; there is no doubt about that.

	14-02-2002 09:17									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Slobodan Milosevic being who he is...

He has been put into a bad light by a really l--o--n--g propaganda campaign.

	14-02-2002 09:18									#53
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quote: Sherman could possibly be considered a war criminal. As to recognizing the Confederacy, historians have argued for a century if the original US were a confederacy (which you can leave) or a federation (which you canīt leave, except in general consensus).

Unfortunately historians don't tend to know the US Constitution, which clearly allows for secession.

Let's not have that discussion again though

	14-02-2002 09:19									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune He has been put into a bad light by a really l--o--n--g propaganda campaign.

Well, regardless, he is an absolute dictator who fought ethnic wars in the past.

	14-02-2002 09:22									#55
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Some of his generals certainly were (especially Butler and Sherman).

Which parts of the Lieber Code did they violate?

	14-02-2002 09:23									#56
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Puting one leader on trial every now and then doesn't mean much to me (especially when it's only enemies to the super powers) - I wish they'd put every politician on trial.

	14-02-2002 09:23									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Well, regardless, he is an absolute dictator who fought ethnic wars in the past.

Ehhh, again no. He was elected, and he didnīt fight any wars before the breakup of Yugoslavia.

	14-02-2002 09:24									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Ehhh, again no. He was elected, and he didnīt fight any wars before the breakup of Yugoslavia.

He was elected. He seemed to hold power pretty tight untill the US stepped in. And he didn't fight any wars before the breakup of Yugoslavia.

	14-02-2002 09:36									#59
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When Yugoslavia fell apart, chaos resulted. There were unresolved territorial and economic disputes en masse.

The Serbs/Milosevic got all the blame, which was one-sided.

	14-02-2002 09:45									#60
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I'd argue that. Some of his generals certainly were (especially Butler and Sherman).

Oh, that's Bullshit and you know it. "Sherman's March" is a bunch of revisonist crap Southern Textbooks have been playing for generations.

During the March Sherman's Army actualy grew by one half, as locals and escaped slaves joined him. If you go to any "Historical Plantation" along the route, they talk about the hardships imposed by Sherman's men stealing Horses, food, and what have you.

Read carefully, while they did steal food and horses and what have you, standing orders preventing them from stealing much. I can go look it up, but the gist of it is the looting is complete crap, less than Lee's AoNV as a matter of fact in Pennslyvania.

Now, on to his alledged "Burning" of Atlanta(and Charleston)...more crap. In both cases, all real evidence points to retreating Confederates, or Looters, the looters being locals.

Butler....hmmm....what'd he do...

Well, he acted like a real ******* when some of the "Ladies" of Nawlins spat in his face. But did he really commit anything that can be construed as War Crimes? no.



--------------

You want to find the real War criminals of the Civil War, look South. Forrest, "Bloody Bill" Quentin, Mosby, the entire Confederate Government, the administrators of Andersonville and other Confederate POW camps. (In all fairness, the CSA didn't have a monopoly on harsh POW camps, a Union one in Buffalo, NY, was famous for gving thin linen blankets as the sole protection against winter.)

For a Union "war Criminal", I'd have to say the only General who qualifies is Sheridan, who set the Shenandoah valley to the torch.

Of course, small change compared to Confederate thugs...