 |
|
David Floyd
|
|
The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:17
|
|
So Sherman DIDN'T force prisoners and civilians to march in front of his army to set off torpedos (mines)? Really?
And you care to post documentation on the rest of it? Because I assure you I can probably find counter-documentation.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
OneFootInTheGrave
|
 |
Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Rambouillet was a treaty that no leader of a souvereign state could have signed. It was about Yugoslavia giving up its souvereignity as a state. No one does that without losing a war. Rambouillet was designed to be impossible to accept for the Serbs. It was the same kind of unfair ultimatum we -Austrians- presented to the Serbs in 1914.
Rambouillet was just about giving NATO an excuse to attack. Madeleine Albright wanted to have that war. |
Actually Kosovo had a separate status in Former Yugoslavia as well as Vojvodina, they were not directly a part of Serbia. Milosevic took out their souveregnity during his reign, so not too much would have changed there to what it was prior to Milosevic.
quote:
No one can conquer his own country. That they contested the breakup of Yugoslavia is an entirely different thing. Had Germany and the US not -very prematurely- recognized the new entities, it would have been seen as the civil war it really was. Milosevic never attacked a foreign country, and as to who was 'right' in the civil war, this issue is at least in doubt.
|
Civil was as it really was? Wow. Yugopslavia was only formed in 1918, with different nations making a federation under the Yugoslavian King - Serbian before that- since that was suitable for them than. However every entity had it separate history and the right for seccession if its people wanted it. That is what happened in 1990 wiht Croatia and Slovenia first and later Bosnia and Macedonia. Civil War... no way.
SO you would permit killing thousands of people in front of your eyes by some militant dictator and his administration without doing anyting. Pehaps you woted for Heider? no?
quote:
Ehhh, to my knowledge they havenīt yet found any victims that were
-clearly Albanian,
-clearly non-combatant,
-clearly not killed by KLA/NATO.
In other words, there is no proof that Albanian civilians have, in fact, been slaughtered by the Yugoslavian Army.
|
More than 3500 clearly Albanian victims, non combatant killed by the Serbian army. And 740 000 made refugees in this short time before interwention.
quote:
Kamrat, if Milosevic did commit crimes against humanity, he should certainly answer for them. The question is if that was really the case. The second question is if a tribunal that is paid for by the Soros Foundation and the United States (mostly) and that is not allowed to look into violations committed by NATO should be considered unbiased.
|
true, that is why he is having public trial so everyone can see it and he has full right to defend himself and his actions if he can prove them right of course. But a man with the just cause would surely defend his cause and give good reasons for the thousands of dead. No?
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
OneFootInTheGrave
|
|
Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by LaRusso
Imran, if you listened today to the full text of the speach, you might have noticed something that I did on the first day - they are translating one sentence out of four.
OneFoot -
1)Kosovo was, under 1974 Consittution, an autonomous province WITHIN Serbia. Read it again.
2) You might be interested to know that republics did not have self determination right under the COnstitution. Only 'nations' did (and not 'nationalities' - this including Albanians as well). This also answers Roland's question - there was no right to seceed.
The problem started when everyone thought that they are opressed and that administrative borders are to be respected (theirs) but that everyone should also incorporate 'brothers' living accross the lines
3) Official Croatian census figures put Serbs at 4% now.
Let me make something clear. I am half Croatian. I am deeply sorry that Yugoslavia ever fell apart. I wish I would wake up and it is again a whole and that all of this was a bad dream. I emigrated because Milosevic's dudes at the place I worked prevented me from getting a job (and I wanted to work on academia). Yet to demonize him like this only serves to forget the crimes of others.
E.g.:
Why did Izetbegovic revoke his signature on Cutillero's plan for Bosnia in 1992?
But I gotta go back to work...damn you Roland for msging me back to the forum LOL |
1) True, but shouldn't Kosovo had a 'republic' like status now? It had it's own legal system as far as I can remember under 1974 constitution, and a member in Yugoslavian presidency. Within SRJ it had none of these.
2) I thought they had a right to seperate after a referendum that was positive. But do you have a link or something?
3) I would like a link on this too, I thought that the number of Serbs in Croatia is much greater 150000 as you say. Basically as if 2/3 left.
Regardless I agree that there were crimes committed by all parties and that is undisputable, but Slobodan Milosevic was pretty much the one who started it all -the war- not the seccession - or his regime. I believe that this will be proved, and he definitley has a right to defend himself and put forth the evidence that will prove the opposite. At the end he was the head the state and should have had plenty of evidence to present if the claims are not true. I doubt that Kostunica and current SRJ government wouldnt supply the evidence. And more than anything I am interested in him proving the support for his actions from UK and French governments and politicians at the beginning.
quote:
My favourite Tudjman line is: 'The creation of the Third Reich was justified by the need to get rid of the Jews'.
I really wonder why US Jewish organizations supported Croatian Nazis and Bosnian Mujaheddin against the Serbs; have they lost their marbles? |
Well I haven't heard that line have you got a link  but I don't like him either. But to indentify present Croats with the Nazis and Bosnians with Mujahedeen??? Thay only shows prejudice and lack of judgement on your side.
quote:
It was a civil war but for the fact that Germany and the US recognized Croatia and Bosnia. That recognition was not only politically questionable, it may have been a breaking of International Law as well.
***
Letīs say a right-wing terror group manages to take over Illinois. In a climate of violence and threat they hold a referendum about separation from the US. Their tanks rolling through Chicago they manage to get 80% of the frightened citizens to vote for 'White Power'.
Do you really think it would be a crime for the US Army to try remove the clowns, and restore normalcy? |
and that shows the lack of knowledge about the case in place. As you wouldn't know 80 % certainly were not frightened, and if you accept that an multiethnic state sorts out it's internal problems by one ethnicity subjecting the others and keeping them quiet with arms. Well I guess you wouldn't mind to be murdered just because Slovenes are taking over Austria because they control the army ??? (and that woulkd be just internal porblem of course - OK they are too small but let say they compromice 25% of Austrian population)Btw the state was created trough agreement from the nations in question at the first place.
And as for Kosovo speach for than Yugoslavian situation was quite 'protective' and had an accent on the Serbian national strenght. Like this quote:
Through the play of history and life, it seems as if Serbia has, precisely in this year, in 1989, regained its state and its dignity and thus has celebrated an event of the distant past which has a great historical and symbolic significance for its future. |
for example
That was totallw weird for Yugoslavian communist "bratstvo I jedinstvo" - brotherhood and unity moto. Where publicly a republic pride and exceptionality displays were not allowd.
That was a public start.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Comrade Tribune
|
 |
Vienna, Austria
Nov 1999
time: 06:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Natan
Would you like to detail some of the atrocities you seem to think the Slavic Muslim forces guilty of? US Jewish organizations, like all decent and thinking people, supported the struggle against the murderers of 200,000 innocent civillians. |
Natan, your ignorance seemingly knows no bounds. 
No one murdered 200.000 civilians. If you believe that, there is a bridge near my home which you might be interested in buying? 
However, there are a few -undisputed- facts that might get even you thinking:
1) Tudjman and his followers strongly identified with the Ustascha.
2) The Ustascha was the WWII organization that lead the Nazi puppet government in Croatia. The German generals were not quite happy with them: They thought they were over-zealous, and perhaps risking unrest by killing too many people in too short a time.
3) Ustascha built a concentration camp, Krasenovac, where they murdered between 750.000 and 1,100.000 Serbs. Krasenovac was the second-worst concentration camp of WWII, right after Auschwitz.
Therefore even you might somehow comprehend why Milosevic didnīt want any Serbs forced to live under the Ustascha-successor-organization.
Or perhaps you would have no problem with living under a Nazi-successor organization, as long as they promise that, this time, they wonīt kill so many?
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
OneFootInTheGrave
|
|
Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Natan, your ignorance seemingly knows no bounds.
No one murdered 200.000 civilians. If you believe that, there is a bridge near my home which you might be interested in buying?
However, there are a few -undisputed- facts that might get even you thinking:
1) Tudjman and his followers strongly identified with the Ustascha.
2) The Ustascha was the WWII organization that lead the Nazi puppet government in Croatia. The German generals were not quite happy with them: They thought they were over-zealous, and perhaps risking unrest by killing too many people in too short a time.
3) Ustascha built a concentration camp, Krasenovac, where they murdered between 750.000 and 1,100.000 Serbs. Krasenovac was the second-worst concentration camp of WWII, right after Auschwitz.
Therefore even you might somehow comprehend why Milosevic didnīt want any Serbs forced to live under the Ustascha-successor-organization.
Or perhaps you would have no problem with living under a Nazi-successor organization, as long as they promise that, this time, they wonīt kill so many? |
If you lived in Republika Srpska I could belive that you were thinking this, but in Austria wow the ignorance.
just for the record
1- Tudjman while on the right did not indentify himself with them as no sane person would.
2- over zelaous??? not really just like them -- can you beat the germans (and Austrians :hmmm in that - i doubt it.
3- Jasenovac was the name, and 750000 - 1100000 Serbs, man no Serbs would be left. Probably 56,000 and 97,000 of all races including Croats that opposed the regime.
go here
http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/jasenovac//
As for the difference with Germany and Austria mainstream Croatian politicans dod not choose this path, but after Germany invaded they setup Ustase as the ruling faction that needed full german support to stay in power. They were far right faction at the time that did not have political influence in First Yugoslavia or Croatia, but unfortunatly Hitler found great allies in them once he invaded the country and set them up as they had same ideas. Many Croats died from them as well.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Natan
|
 |
New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:17
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Natan, your ignorance seemingly knows no bounds.
No one murdered 200.000 civilians. If you believe that, there is a bridge near my home which you might be interested in buying? |
I guess you think that the 200,000 missing Muslims and Catholics went to the same place as the millions of missing Jews?
quote:
However, there are a few -undisputed- facts that might get even you thinking:
1) Tudjman and his followers strongly identified with the Ustascha.
2) The Ustascha was the WWII organization that lead the Nazi puppet government in Croatia. The German generals were not quite happy with them: They thought they were over-zealous, and perhaps risking unrest by killing too many people in too short a time.
3) Ustascha built a concentration camp, Krasenovac, where they murdered between 750.000 and 1,100.000 Serbs. Krasenovac was the second-worst concentration camp of WWII, right after Auschwitz. |
Aware of all of that. It goes without saying that the Ustashe were monsters of the vilest kind, and trust me, I am also aware of the role of the Serbian people in fighting against the Nazis and even in trying to save Jews from their clutches. But murdering Muslim civillians in Srebrenica and elsewhere is not in any way a response to the crimes of the Ustashe.
quote:
Therefore even you might somehow comprehend why Milosevic didnīt want any Serbs forced to live under the Ustascha-successor-organization.
Or perhaps you would have no problem with living under a Nazi-successor organization, as long as they promise that, this time, they wonīt kill so many? |
It's not the Serbian secession at Krajina and in Slavonia that disturbs me. It's not their fighting in Bosnia either. It's that the Serbian militias killed hundreds of thousands of innocents.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:17.
Apolyton Time is 00:17. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
14-02-2002 10:12
you know nothing but waht they fed you so it has no weight. 
|