13-02-2002 20:57									#1
	Milosevic on Trial Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

http://www.guardian.co.uk/yugo/arti...,649570,00.html

one more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1817525.stm

and one picture of a prisoner in the war that was shown at the opening

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	13-02-2002 21:02									#2
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Question by someone who knows almost nothing about the issue :
Why his own country didnt trial him? Why "the world" demanded him to be trialed in the Hague?

	13-02-2002 21:02									#3
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Farce of a trial.

	13-02-2002 21:03									#4
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Farce of a trial.

Why?

	13-02-2002 21:08									#5
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Because his own country does have an interest to convict him for genocide and war crimes commited in other countries. His is the main convict but there are many others from Bosnian and Croatian sides too.

quote: Farce of a trial.

I'd like you to say the same about 9/11 convicts even though there is much less evidence against those people held in US camp in Guantanamo.

	13-02-2002 21:09									#6
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Why?

Because the blatant violation of international law that was the NATO Kosovo campaign is not being punished. I think that if you wish to take the credible moral highground in order to pontificate to the rest of the world then you should be more equitable in who you single out for condemnation for violations of international law.

Furthermore, the Serbian people have the easier criminal case to prove and should have been the ones to try him for his crimes.

	13-02-2002 21:13									#7
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I doubt that a Serbian court will ever convict him for 7500 killed in Srebrenica, or the direct responsibility for Croatian, Bosnian and Kosovo wars and the killings that were done there. In the same way that German courts were not permitted to handle Nazi general trial.

	13-02-2002 21:16									#8
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quote: Furthermore, the Serbian people have the easier criminal case to prove and should have been the ones to try him for his crimes.

I simply doubt that a fair and correct process in Serbia is possible when there are many of former Milosevic supporters still in their old positions (e.g. army, police).

	13-02-2002 21:18									#9
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quote: Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave I doubt that a Serbian court will ever convict him for 7500 killed in Srebrenica, or the direct responsibility for Croatian, Bosnian and Kosovo wars and the killings that were done there.

They don't have to try him for those crimes. They could have just as easily as convicted the man on the massive coruption charges against him and if Croatia had wanted him tried they should have captured him themselves becuase the whole conflict was none of NATO's concern.

	13-02-2002 21:25									#10
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I guess that stability in Europe is NATO's concern, and that was achieved.

As far as the tribunal goes that is setup by the UN and has nothing to do with NATO. Don't you think that it is a good thing that local warlords know that if they go over their limits that they can be tried in a court and that their crimes agains humanity can be shown, as well as for many victims - in such cases there are always many victims - that there is a place and hope that justice can be done one day.

	13-02-2002 21:25									#11
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Stability on its southern flank is nothing important for the NATO?

Edit: OneFootInTheGrave, please stop reading my mind

	13-02-2002 21:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Stability on its southern flank is nothing important for the NATO?

NATO military action in Kosovo preceeding Milosevic's downfall was a blatant violation of the very international law that Europe is now complaining that the US is violating.

OneFootInTheGrave: Don't you think that it is a good thing that local warlords know that if they go over their limits

I could care less what the local warlords do to thier own people as long as they do not threaten US interests abroad. And so far the only accomplished by the NATO actions in Yugoslavia is that we moved the conflict south. Nothing of real import changed in the region.

	13-02-2002 21:40									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc NATO military action in Kosovo preceeding Milosevic's downfall was a blatant violation of the very international law that Europe is now complaining that the US is violating.

Err, do you mean your operations in Afghanistan? Who complained about that, which NATO Allies?

	13-02-2002 21:47									#14
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I mean that Europe can not be logically consistent and claim to be holier then thou when you claim that international law is sacrosanct in one instance (The Geneva Conventions) and disregard it in its entirety in another (Chapter VIII, Article 53 of the United Nations Charter).

	13-02-2002 21:52									#15
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I could care less about that behaviour as long as it is good for Europe...

	13-02-2002 21:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I could care less about that behaviour as long as it is good for Europe...

It irritates the Yanks though.

	13-02-2002 22:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I mean that Europe can not be logically consistent and claim to be holier then thou when you claim that international law is sacrosanct in one instance (The Geneva Conventions) and disregard it in its entirety in another (Chapter VIII, Article 53 of the United Nations Charter).

Why did they disregard article 53? Perhaps the term enemy state was not clear enough? After Croatia and Bosnia, they should have stayed out of Kosovo and watched another couple of hundred thousands displaced and thousands killed? Doesn't that make up for an enemy state? or at least a dictator. Their action was neccessary to ensure peace and stability. I guess that should not be in question. If Milosevic wanted to stop the clensing and signed the Ramboulet agreement the bombing would not have happened.

What was put on the table was - stop killing the weaker ones or you will have to have a lesson. Well a lesson ensued. Until Milosevic stopped.
.
Btw a stable Europe isn't one of US interests?

Anyway that does not say that the worst of crimes which is organising war ethnic clensing and mass murder should not be judged in a court of law that is why an International war crimes tribunal was set up at the end. When you have crime you should have a punishment too? Don't you think? I guess that you would want someone who killed your family to get caught and get tried in a court if it ever happened to you, along wioth those who organised that crime. Well there are people elsewhere in the world that want to see the justice done as well. No?

	13-02-2002 22:43									#18
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For an alternative point of view and arguments and although I don't subscribe to everything it states, check my sig.

(BTW this is not an attack on Croatia and doesn't undermine its rights in any way).

	13-02-2002 22:45									#19
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Good!

I say get the bastard for life. His actions were direct violations of international law, and I think for once, we should say the genocide is wrong.

Unfortunetly Europe doesn't use the death penalty

	13-02-2002 22:47									#20
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I understand but if by historical chance Greece was not in EU and he managed to get Kings Dusan empire back - to Thesallonika, and on the way cast out 2 million Greeks and killed a 100000 I guess you would not have this opinion you have now.

	13-02-2002 22:52									#21
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QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Good!

I say get the bastard for life. His actions were direct violations of international law, and I think for once, we should say the genocide is wrong.

Unfortunetly Europe doesn't use the death penalty [/QUOTE]

Actuially this is an UN agency but just performed on European soil. But I guess if he did this againt tha US citizens he would have been sure to die. This way life imprisonment - even harsher I'd say, only bad thing is it is on taxpayers expense.

	13-02-2002 22:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui His actions were direct violations of international law,

Let's not persue this line of accusation too closely shall we. It could prove to be emberassing.

quote: and I think for once, we should say the genocide is wrong.

We can credibly do that once we sanction Russia for its actions in Chechnya, etc.

	13-02-2002 22:57									#23
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just read about the KLA training by american and british forces long before there any idea about albanian expulsion. Also thousands of ethnic serbs were made to live Croatia. Why is this not qualifyed as ethnic cleansing for example?

it is an orchastrated attempt to swift all the blame to miloevic whereas the mani responsible remains NATO, USA and EU as accomplishes.

Just read some of the articles.

Imran, typical reaction you know nothing but waht they fed you so it has no weight.

	13-02-2002 23:17									#24
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 just read about the KLA training by american and british forces long before there any idea about albanian expulsion. Also thousands of ethnic serbs were made to live Croatia. Why is this not qualifyed as ethnic cleansing for example? it is an orchastrated attempt to swift all the blame to miloevic whereas the mani responsible remains NATO, USA and EU as accomplishes. Just read some of the articles. Imran, typical reaction you know nothing but waht they fed you so it has no weight.

As for an orchestrated attempt - there was a plan to conquer and that is one of the thing that will be proven Milosevic was a man orcestrating it. The failure of EU, mainly Britain and France was in that they did not prevent it on time (their vision was Yugoslavia preserved under Serbian rule) so they gave Milosevic green light for this at the beginning. But he had the plan for all this that ensued first of all and plenty of evidence for this exists which is why he is tried - he was the leader in the same way Hitler was the leader of Nazi Germany. I don't know if it is neccessary to prove that he killed a single Jew personally when he orchestrated their genocide.

Yes and Croats will be tried at the same court as well as Serbs and Bosnians who can be convicted of war crimes. For 150000 Serbs that lest Croatia an ethnic clesning charge cannot be made since this was an organised attempt by their rebel warlords to get Serbia in the direct and official conflict with Croatia wich I am glad Milosevic was wise enough to avoid. - btw they were all set and ready to go. 150000 left in 5 days. - I hope you see the difference in this here and thrown out of thir homes with the homes burned and many killed because they were just there over many months - They packed up and went with their cars/tractors etc. There were some war crimes in some places later against some people that stayed but there are Croats coming to the trial as well. Not only that but I guess this is a precedent in modern history that soldiers and officiers from an army that was defending its own territory - reclaiming it to say it better, will be tried for inhumane conduct during war. I can only hope that "superpowers" would do the same when they fight wars.

	13-02-2002 23:21									#25
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quote: We can credibly do that once we sanction Russia for its actions in Chechnya, etc.

As for Russia - that would be fair but I guess they don't allow it without WWIII. Milosevic is to weak for that, but that is not saying that he is right for what he did.

	13-02-2002 23:22									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I mean that Europe can not be logically consistent and claim to be holier then thou when you claim that international law is sacrosanct in one instance (The Geneva Conventions) and disregard it in its entirety in another (Chapter VIII, Article 53 of the United Nations Charter).

Europe and NATO are not the same thing. NATO is controlled mainly by USA. And the case of Serbia (crime against humanity) is quite different from Afghanistan (support of terrorist organisation).

I'm not sure of what you are talking about.

Through the case have too many dark points and is very complexe. Western countries have take a part of the Serbian/Croatiam problem.

NATO bombing weren't a good thinks. Because the real goal wasn't humanitar.

But the interest of this trial is not to put Milosevic in prison (if deserve it, he is not the lone) but maybe to grap some part of the truth.

	13-02-2002 23:33									#27
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quote: Imran, typical reaction you know nothing but waht they fed you so it has no weight.

You can put your fingers in your ears if you want, but the proof is there, and the Albanians have been slaughtered.

If Milosevic dies, then good riddence to rubbish.

	13-02-2002 23:42									#28
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Imran I believe you were looking to the mirror when you said that.
I understand your passion for the defense of people of the same faith. I invite you to at least browse through the legal articles of my sig. If nothing else it would be good practice for your chosen proffession.

	14-02-2002 00:09									#29
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I don't understand how people can be against a trial against Milosovic. He planned to genocide the Kosovars, the Bosnians and the Kroatians. He did that so systimatic and organized way that it would make Hitler proud.

By not accepting the by a Democratic referendum created independence of Kroatia and Bosnia had he heavily violated the international laws. His invasion in Bosnia and Kroatia where unprovoked invasions and that is a valid reason to start a war against him, just like the unprovoked invasion in Poland by Hitler was a valid reason to declare war on him.

Without Milosovic would the Balkan wars have most likley not happened. Because it was is refusal of the democratic and legal declarations of independence of Kroatia and Bosnia that created this war.

	14-02-2002 00:12									#30
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I agree that he should have accepted the declarations of independence although it is not a clear international breach by him.
also the same goes on in Turkey and noone acts so of course I'm pissed.

but that's not what the bombings were about and there is a large part played by the west in driving Serbia into that predicament that mostly goes unnoticed. the truth is out there and it ain't no x-files.