15-02-2002 09:45									#1
	Palestinians destroy Israeli tank Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: aza Explosion Kills Three Israelis By STEVE WEIZMAN .c The Associated Press JERUSALEM (AP) - A bomb went off under a tank in the Gaza Strip Thursday, killing three Israelis and wounding two, military officials said, as European diplomats stepped up an offensive to end Israeli-Palestinian violence. The attack followed an Israeli incursion into Gaza that was denounced by the Palestinian leadership as a ``dangerous escalation'' in violence. It was Israel's largest operation in Gaza during 16 months of Israeli-Palestinian clashes. The military officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Palestinians opened fire on a civilian convoy guarded by soldiers and set off a bomb. The Israelis responded by sending a tank into the area and soon after a second, larger bomb exploded under it, they said. Israel Radio and TV said the casualties were soldiers in the tank. The bombing took place near the Netzarim intersection southeast of Gaza City, the officials said. About 5,000 Israeli settlers live in Gaza among more than a million Palestinians. Israel controls the main roads through Gaza, and soldiers protect convoys of civilian vehicles entering and leaving the settlements. Israeli forces pulled out of the last of three Gaza towns Wednesday, ending an 18-hour operation launched in response to rocket fire Sunday by Palestinian militants. Five Palestinians were killed during the raids. Palestinian leadership denounced the incursion, Israeli commentators questioned its effectiveness, saying the main suspects from the Hamas militant group have escaped. All but two of 18 Palestinians arrested during the sweeps were released, military sources said.

	15-02-2002 09:55									#2
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More good news reports like this please.

	15-02-2002 09:58									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse More good news reports like this please.

Glad I could bring a smile to your face!

	15-02-2002 09:59									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse More good news reports like this please.

Better for an Israeli to die than and noble palastinian right?

	15-02-2002 10:45									#5
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They full well know that they should remove those 5.000 settlers from Gaza; they should never have settled there.

How can Israel expect peace, if they are not even willing to hand over to the Palestinians that tiny strip of territory? Which does belong to Egypt in the first place, or am I mistaken?

	15-02-2002 11:30									#6
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Israel is a tiny strip of territory.

Spearman vs. Tank, anyone?

	15-02-2002 11:53									#7
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I'm sorry those boys had to die.

But they didn't belong there.

	15-02-2002 14:46									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Better for an Israeli to die than and noble palastinian right?

Do you have to ask?

	15-02-2002 15:45									#9
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Not very good news, but I have two feeling :
1) This news have good points : Now Palestinian terrorists/resistants shows that they have guts to attack militars and I prefere larger when war kills man on arm rather than civilians.
2) Guys are dead, and I hate to dance on grave. This give more blood to cycle of death and destruction.

	15-02-2002 16:16									#10
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Merkava Mk3 tank. 100kg of explosives.

It's a huge moral boost to the Palestinians, destroying an Israeli tank.
And again, the retaliation must be like nothing we seen before, otherwise we will slowly get used to losing tanks. But our impotent goverment will prefer to destroy bricks again.

	15-02-2002 16:25									#11
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An improved Merkava3 blown up. That was one hell of a charge... You don't just go around destroying stuff like that. Ah, well. They should be more careful. World's best tank, no less.

	15-02-2002 16:41									#12
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Here come more sad news. In an Israeli action is some Palestinian village, the commander of the Duvdevan(cherry) unit was killed. That's the highest ranking man we lost till now.

	15-02-2002 16:43									#13
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lucky fvcken shot.

	15-02-2002 17:13									#14
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm sorry those boys had to die. But they didn't belong there.

This story makes it clear that Israel is fighting not only a terrorist threat, but a guerilla force - and judging by your nickname you are probably able to see how dangerous that can be to a population. Israel, however, is STILL not using their full military strength.

	15-02-2002 21:58									#15
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Anyone who thought such a thing would not happen is a fool. With this type of escalation going on, and with Israeli tactics focusing on armor, a two year old would have guessed that the Palestinian response would be to seek a way to destroy tanks.

As for anybody who says 'well, Israel has not gone full out yet', well, they can't. This is more a political contests than a military one- israel can't use full, and of course, higly destructive force since it would in a second, loose any claims that it is the sole victim. Pictures of lots of dead civilians is what keep sympathy with Israel. Pictures of lots of dead palestinian civilians would be the LAST thing Israel wants broadcast on CNN. That would be the fastets way to undermine US support, ie. their only foreign support.

	15-02-2002 23:54									#16
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Very good news, now Israel has to watch their backs as they escalate further.

	16-02-2002 00:26									#17
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Mark, the Merkava3 is NOT the world's best tank. It would get it's ass handed to it by an M1A2 or Leopard 3 - especially an M1A2 given the quality of US training and such.

	16-02-2002 00:49									#18
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It has 3 capabilities in which it's superior to those :

it can behave like an APC .
it's better suited to desert terrain.
a better protection of the crew. ( The engine is infront of the crew...)

the last one don't work when the whole ****ing tank falls apart though....

100kgs are a very HE charge.

	16-02-2002 00:49									#19
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Or Challenger II, T80U, maybe T90, and the new Cherny Oriol "black eagle" of course.
But maybe this is not the topic.

	16-02-2002 00:52									#20
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While the US training is superior to the Israeli one in all issues, our soldiers have something you dont have. Combat experience.
It's less significant in the tanks, because there were no wars lately but for stuff like special forces, I believe that even our mediocre SF units like Duvdevan or Egoz will kick the **** out of most of your SF, mainly because on average a Duvdevan team has one mission per 2-3 days. And even these units are nothing close to the Shayetet or 767.

[/end of nationalistic bragging]

	16-02-2002 00:55									#21
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One Israeli citizen was murdered in a shooting teract near Bet El.

	16-02-2002 00:55									#22
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T-90s are weak. They are no match for Merkava III or Abrams. All they are is updated versions of the T-72's (more armor, lower profile a few new eletronic gadgets and a 910m2 missile). T-90s still cant Fire and move at the same time accurately and would probably have 4:1 ratio against Abrams.


what Dalgetti says is true. But an Abrams could make short work of an Merkava. Depleted Uranium is way too much for most convential shells a medium range (90% denser than steel, plus a huge advantage with abrams is beig able to track 16 targets and have them all destroyed in less than 10 minutes)


Wow...that was a big bomb. I wonder who made it for the palestinians?

Question: Will this prevent Israeli incursions (or make them think twice)?

	16-02-2002 01:01									#23
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I am also a bit happy they chose a tank and not a school bus.

	16-02-2002 01:23									#24
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"While the US training is superior to the Israeli one in all issues, our soldiers have something you dont have. Combat experience."

Well in the past that is true, but our SF and our fighter pilots are getting plenty of combat experience now. And your soldiers have experience with poice action, but not in full scale combat against a real army. And anyway, Iraq and the Taliban both had combat experience, but neither fared well against the USA.

In any case this is sad news, hopefully future such attacks can be prevented.

	16-02-2002 01:23									#25
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Question: Will this prevent Israeli incursions (or make them think twice)?

I dont think so.
A) The attack was during a routine operation and not incursion.
B) Such bombs were found and disarmed numerous times in the past. So it's just another threat we deal with.

But the Karmi-Netzarim road and the area around it will be widened so that IDF soldiers will be able to watch the area and detect people better. So you can expect more house demolitions in the next days.

quote: I am also a bit happy they chose a tank and not a school bus.

I'm sure that it will come too.

	16-02-2002 01:25									#26
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The Russian tanks have also their highs and lows with the highs being their extremely high value per price(better than the west toys), and the sturdiness of the equipment due to the simplicity , or one might say the practicality of the equipment .The lows are the lacking tracking systems, and the resulting handicap if comparing a single armored unit compared to it's western

FG : Believe me , Israel has tracking systems that are at least not inferior to the american.

The armor itself : all is said on an AFAIK basis , but it seems that Israel has its armor in kevlar , but me not sertain.
(kevlar ...5 times more rigid than steel )


but if we go on comparing the weaponary of various nations we must take our hats off to the russian Kamov construction bureau that has created the best chopper in the world : the "Black Shark".... it's actually quite funny that the west , with all of it's pretence on being hi-tech , can't master the technology of using a double main prop , instread of the tail fin....
(end of nationalistic bragging.... )

	16-02-2002 01:27									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Well in the past that is true, but our SF and our fighter pilots are getting plenty of combat experience now. And your soldiers have experience with poice action, but not in full scale combat against a real army.

Concerning the SF, yes. They get plenty of training in Afghanistan.
But your pilots dont do stuff more complicated than our pilots. Dropping bombs on structures is not that hard.

quote: And anyway, Iraq and the Taliban both had combat experience, but neither fared well against the USA.

You never fought the Taliban.

	16-02-2002 01:28									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Eli I dont think so. A) The attack was during a routine operation and not incursion. B) Such bombs were found and disarmed numerous times in the past. So it's just another threat we deal with. But the Karmi-Netzarim road and the area around it will be widened so that IDF soldiers will be able to watch the area and detect people better. So you can expect more house demolitions in the next days.

Ok then. I did not know B) or A). I think the response of hiting the Gaza compound again is a restrained response. I can tell Sharon is trying real hard not to go all out on these ******.

quote: I'm sure that it will come too.

No doubt, but they would get more support if they attacked military targets and civilian ones.

	16-02-2002 01:36									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dalgetti The Russian tanks have also their highs and lows with the highs being their extremely high value per price(better than the west toys), and the sturdiness of the equipment due to the simplicity , or one might say the practicality of the equipment .The lows are the lacking tracking systems, and the resulting handicap if comparing a single armored unit compared to it's western

Well, I have always been a fan of Russian equipment. Because it is alot cheaper. You can buy 5 T-90
s for the price of 1 abrams, and it is considered top quality "Generic" battlefield alternatives/matches. Also Russians are generally easier to produce and maintain. I mean, for christ sakes. Look at the T-55's and T-62's the Taliban and NA were using. Most probably hadnt seen a mechanic in 2 decades

So I know Russian Stuff is known for its cheap quantity, fair quality, and low maintence. Thats why they are the largest arms exporter to 90% of the worlds war zones and not USA or Europe arms producers.

Poor mans BlitzKrieg


Bt generally, most Russian equipment isnt up to par with ours. Tho marketed as an equal, the T-55 was no match for M60. And it wasnt until the T-62 and 72 models did Russia have its advantage over the M60.


Likewise with the abrams. T-80's and T-90's are marketed as cheap alternatives. But niether are probably much match.

I dont know about the Eagle tank. Never heard of it.

	16-02-2002 02:02									#30
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T-90 it is principally a relatively cheap tank adapted to exporting. Nevertheless do not forget that has a 125mm (all other weastern tanks have a 120mm cannon or less) and can shoot AT-11 missiles, a disagreeable surprise for any opponent. Because of it I said "maybe".
T80 is superior in many aspects to M1a1 Abrams, It is cheaper than the Abrams (which is an advantage), but it is not in any way a smplisct tank, The majority of the tank commanders who have proved both tanks, they have inclined for the Russian model. It is more rapid, better armed, and especially more reliable. . Even has a better frontal armour (double-layer reactive armour).
The same thing can be said for T80U and M2A2 .