26-02-2002 01:47									#301
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

What I said above also applies to you, Kaak. You continue to link homosexuality to child abuse, I don´t know which is worse, if you´re to stupid to tell the difference or if you´re doing it on purpose.

	26-02-2002 03:08									#303
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny See Mr Knee. See Mr Knee go jerky-jerky.

	26-02-2002 03:53									#304
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Asher Disliking people is okay, I don't like everyone myself. But I don't make that judgement based upon their sexuality, color, religion, etc. I get to know people for who they are as people, and then decide if I like them or not.

You don't but some do, and some will.

You're entitled to dislike them.

They have their own criterias for disliking people.

quote: Once he leaves his sheltered preschool-esque life at Baylor and steps into the real world, he'll have to work with gay people. And if he lives this sheltered life always thinking that gays are deviant people who he doesn't like by default, he's going to end up hurting people whether he means to or not.

That's what I'm afraid of.

But if he'll limit himself to disliking them and won't discriminate - who cares?

quote: What do all these have in common? The word PEOPLE . We all have to spend our existance on the same planet. We all come from the same line of evolution/creation/whatever.

Surely we don't hate each other because of our similarities.

We most dislike others because of our differences. Be it in opinions, behaviour, culture or height weight and skin color.

one can't judge a person's criterias for hate, I think.

But it is important to remember that while we hate others, they are people. And even though we hate them, we should treat them like people. Not more than that ( since we've already established we hate them ) but no less.

That's the difference in my book.

	26-02-2002 04:20									#305
	Remove this text

quote: Atheists promote nothing

Surely you can see THAT isn't true. The atheist philosophy, or whatever word you want to use, promotes the belief that there is no God.

And you can say that Christians have gone on Crusades, bombed abortion clinics, whatever, but I'd say 1)that people who do such things aren't really Christians, and 2)for every wrong committed by a Christian I could easily name another committed by an atheist. Let's not bring Mao or Stalin or Pol Pot into this, because using extremist examples like them to bash atheists would be just as "illogically unrealistic" (ie stupid as hell) as your examples of extremist Christians.

	26-02-2002 04:38									#306
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: I realize this may be hard for one so logical as yourself to fathom, but christianity has been a moral backbone for a couple thousand years. you can cry that christian morals aren't morals, etc, all you want, but the fact remains. Christianity has caused a vast amount of good in the day to day relations of people for a very long time. If you can't see this, then you are a fool like your friend.

but since you're a pseudo-xian, it's ok for your morals to stink like dog ****.
and you MIGHT be wrong??? as my bigot step-father says: "try again moose breath"
and as YOU say: "you're a fool."

david: maybe this will help. If there is no god what is there?
nothing.

quote: 1)that people who do such things aren't really Christians,

judge not, kind david, lest ye be judged yourself. you have no right to say who is one and who isn't, if this god really exists.

also, unlike LR (and i do disagree with some of his points): i choose to look at the individual. The only reason i pointed out any theology is because Kaak tends to use xian as an excuse when it suits him, and denies it at other times. Peter, will you deny this three times too???? Most of my friends here are devout and LOVING xians, unlike the christians of the past. We have to keep in mind that yes, the christians too were persecuted...by the romans. I think responsibility is placed upon the individual in what acts they take. SOme people are bad, they might happen to be xian, atheist, muslim...or a gopher. Xianity is part of their personlity or philosophy.
And overall, Kaak is just...well...wrong and immature and "foolish."

	26-02-2002 04:41									#307
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

DM...

I think it's reasonable to say that someone who goes on a killing spree either is not a Christian in the Biblical sense, or has serious psychological problems. Either way, though, that person is not a good candidate as a person to use as an example of Christianity.

	26-02-2002 04:43									#308
	Get a bigger avatar today!

david: try reading judges

	26-02-2002 04:43									#309
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: david: maybe this will help. If there is no god what is there? nothing.

Maybe so.

But that isn't a pre-supposition, that's a debatable point (there being no God). Therefore atheism still pushes a certain viewpoint, that there is no God.

	26-02-2002 04:44									#310
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Oh can't we let this thread die. It'll take more than a bunch of Apolytoners to change their minds on how they stand in life. Sad, I know, but just hope that one day they will see the folly of their ways. Albert Speer, Kaak and all other associated bigots, just grow up.

	26-02-2002 04:45									#311
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: david: try reading judges

Point A: That was Judaism not Christianity.

Point B: That was Old Testament Law, applicable only to the Israelites, because they lived in a theocracy with God as the sole king (well, until Saul, David, and Solomon anyway).

Point C: I don't concede that the Israelites' genocide was morally right, whether ordered by God or not. That isn't the point, really.

	26-02-2002 04:47									#312
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

david: god ordered the slaying in judges. therefore, it makes no difference...if God ordered it...christians and jews worship the same god.....it's exactly the same.

	26-02-2002 05:04									#313
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well you could also say that God DID NOT order the Crusades - those were done by greedy Popes and nobles who wanted land

Again, I'm no theologian but I can tell you that the Old Testament times were governed by different "rules" than the New Testament and beyond, to greatly simplify it.

Not that I agree genocide is ever moral, even IF God orders it, although my mom tells me I just don't understand the nature of God. Personally, I think she just doesn't understand right and wrong

	26-02-2002 05:06									#314
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: You continue to link homosexuality to child abuse

i didn't actually link them, i just consider them related in the fact that the person who is turned on by child pornos has no more choice as to what flips his lid than does a gay person. One sickens me, so does the other.

	26-02-2002 05:11									#315
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kaak i didn't actually link them, i just consider them related in the fact that the person who is turned on by child pornos has no more choice as to what flips his lid than does a gay person. One sickens me, so does the other.

What kind of stupid sh*t is that? Whatever goes on between two consenting adults is no one else's business. Unless you haven't noticed in paedophilia, one of the partners is abused and has no choice in the matter.

Your connections between homosexuality and paedophilia are worrying to show the least, and expose a great hole in your character and integrity

	26-02-2002 05:19									#316
	Support Apolyton

DM, All I can say is this.

A) You're way over confident of your self righteousness.

B) You're way too orthodox about religions. You learnt about the basic rules of a certain religion and then think that every person of that religion is the same and blindly accepts every such right.

Well, you've got another thing coming.

I'm jewish both in ethnicity and religion, and you don't see me going around suggesting people be stoned for lack of faith. Infact, even orthodox jews have overgrown that.

So stop supporting yourself by rules which no longer apply to the people.

And if Kaak says that some christian moral doesn't apply to him - this goes. You can't argue "no you're a christian so this is what you are supposed to believe".


As for the rest of you, most of you are too quick to kick in the old stereotypes.

Kaak himself said he isn't very religious, but you keep arguing with him like you would with CivNation.

Kaak himself said he doesn't hate or fear gay people, yet you try to froce him into that stereotype too.

You people are far more close minded that he is.

I feel like I'm arguing for his p.o.v. but I'm not. I'm arguing for a serious discussion, which some people obviously can't have.

	26-02-2002 05:47									#317
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I even think linking homosexuality to pedophila or child abuse is going way too far... not even I would go that far. Sure I condemn homosexuality according to my sig (completely based on my own reasons, I am atheist so religion doesn't matter despite what some think) but I don't go that far.... as far as I am concerned.

	26-02-2002 05:48									#318
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

no. i disagree: self righteous would be me saying "eww..kaak is a beastial gay hater..i'm better than you because i do this" we're not talking about me. i haven't said anything about me. i haven't said i'm better than kaak...i'm just telling him he's wrong and have done so by pointing out passages out of his bible.

quote: You're way too orthodox about religions. You learnt about the basic rules of a certain religion and then think that every person of that religion is the same and blindly accepts every such right.

why? just cause i quoted the bible? brotha pleeeeeeeeeeeeease. what is the scripture? it's the Word. if he is christian, shouldn't the Word have some effect on him? Shouldn't he concede? It's not like i'm dicussing the validity of the sacraments. I'm discussing whether or not he's justified in his self proclaimed dislike of gays and since he doges logic like there's no tomorrow, what else can i do but show him Law???? It's not my fault that as an athiest i see your bible as one equal book...i dont' pick and choose what i listen to.

df: i point out Judges because it's canon. As far as i know, the Crusades arn't part of the Bible.


It's obvious to me that Kaak doesn't care about improving himself. It's now quite obvious to me that perhaps kaak feels threatened by the influx or perhaps "uprising" (although i'm not sure if i'm choosing a good word here) of gays both in his area (our school) and on this board. They're becoming more vocal...
it makes him uncomfortable. He'd like this to be known.
He doesn't care what anyone else thinks.

So, fine Kaak...we've presented you with logical argument after argument and yet you still arrogantly shrug your shoulders. I think we've all said what we can say to you without begining to repeat ourselves. At this point, it's rather a moot point to even say anything because you just come out with some statement stemming from your obstinance to admit your wrong and start trying to change your views. Now i see why you work with computers...
and not people.


like i originally said: what a pity.

	26-02-2002 05:51									#319
	Tired of ads?

DM, I am an idiot when it comes to the bible... but isn't there some line condemning homosexuality as a sin? I really dunno... as I base my beliefs on the existentialist movement.

	26-02-2002 05:54									#320
	Tired of ads?

DM, can you reconcile modern Christianity, which I would define as post-Jesus, emphasis on the NT books written by Paul and various Disciples, with the Old Testament?

If not, I would maintain that the Old Testament was written for a differnet people living under a different law in a different set of circumstances.

	26-02-2002 06:16									#321
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison What kind of stupid sh*t is that? Whatever goes on between two consenting adults is no one else's business. Unless you haven't noticed in paedophilia, one of the partners is abused and has no choice in the matter. Your connections between homosexuality and paedophilia are worrying to show the least, and expose a great hole in your character and integrity

And why do you link paedophilia to child abuse?
That's just as sick as linking homophilia to gay rape

Not all paedophiles are rapists you know

	26-02-2002 06:16									#322
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by devilmunchkin no. i disagree: self righteous would be me saying "eww..kaak is a beastial gay hater..i'm better than you because i do this" we're not talking about me. i haven't said anything about me. i haven't said i'm better than kaak...i'm just telling him he's wrong and have done so by pointing out passages out of his bible.

Well, let's just say that some of your posts seemed like they were coming from a patroznizing perspective.

you've already decided that disliking people because of their actions is wrong, while he is trying to make a discussion of this. you have posted your views in a way which hasn't promoted discussion.

quote: why? just cause i quoted the bible? brotha pleeeeeeeeeeeeease. what is the scripture? it's the Word. if he is christian, shouldn't the Word have some effect on him? Shouldn't he concede? It's not like i'm dicussing the validity of the sacraments.

well, you pretty much said that he should confide himself to one of the defintions of christianity you know, in a previous post.

that's what made me decide you are fighting stereotypes, and not him.

quote: I'm discussing whether or not he's justified in his self proclaimed dislike of gays and since he doges logic like there's no tomorrow, what else can i do but show him Law????

why not presenting other arguements, after he said he doesn't care for bible law as much as you think.

i for instance find the "who cares as long as they don't hurt anyone non-consentually" arguement pretty good.

I would use it against anyone trashing BDSM.

quote: t's not my fault that as an athiest i see your bible as one equal book...i dont' pick and choose what i listen to.

Yes, it is your fault.

If you fight a person's views you fight his views. Not a generalization of them that you happen to know.

quote: It's obvious to me that Kaak doesn't care about improving himself.

i disagree.

he wouldn't have paid so much interest to this forum otherwise.

quote: It's now quite obvious to me that perhaps kaak feels threatened by the influx or perhaps "uprising" (although i'm not sure if i'm choosing a good word here) of gays both in his area (our school) and on this board.

I again disagree.

He hasn't seemed threatened at all, and has no troubles talking to any of the gays here.

quote: They're becoming more vocal... it makes him uncomfortable. He'd like this to be known. He doesn't care what anyone else thinks.

Now you contradict yourself.

If he doesn't care, he wouldn't like his voice to be heard since he wouldn't have cared.

quote: So, fine Kaak...we've presented you with logical argument after argument and yet you still arrogantly shrug your shoulders.

Most people presented arguements not relating to him.

The only on topic discussion that was here is when BFB said : "what they do is in consent and doesn't hurt anyone" and Kaak replied "it still grosses me out".

So it didn't convince him, but it was still a discussion on topic.

Let's put it this way.
I have a certain fetish. Some people may think it's wierd and dislike me. I accept that. Some people will think it's too wierd. Ok. It's their right. As long as they don't treat me less than a human being, I accept their right to dislike me.

quote: I think we've all said what we can say to you without begining to repeat ourselves.

No, we're already repeating ourselves

quote: like i originally said: what a pity.

Who cares?
there are many people who are indifferent to gay people

	26-02-2002 06:17									#323
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Assur And why do you link paedophilia to child abuse? That's just as sick as linking homophilia to gay rape Not all paedophiles are rapists you know

I imagine it would take, oh 5 minutes for the neo-liberals here to blame you of pedohpilia

Then they'll start convincing you why it's wrong and why you're a bigot, even though you never claimed anything about it.

	26-02-2002 06:20									#324
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The Bible [within the Old Testament] states 'Thou shalt kill the man who sleeps with another man' in the same book as the Ten Commandments, but that is within the Old Testament. That is not universally accepted by all Christians to treat gays as if they were inhuman. Maybe it is mentioned elsewhere and possibly someone else can get us a quote for it.

	26-02-2002 06:23									#325
	Increase Your PM Length

Pedophilia is not related to sexual orientation--it is related to a psychological disorder that is also rightly seen as criminal behavior. Within heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual groups, you will find some people who are pedophiles.

There is nothing criminal, diseased, or flawed about expression of physical, sexual intimacy between two mutually consenting adults just because they are of the same gender.

	26-02-2002 06:35									#326
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Siro: beautiful post.

She just has trouble realizing a few basic premises, even after repeated attempts to help her.

1) I wasn't basing any argument on scripture.
2) Most CHRISTIANS do not follow the old testament. You must have paid attention in OT class, but missed that particular point. New Testament has some sway, but different groups of Christians see it as having very different meanings. There are groups that take the words to be the Word, ignoring anything else. There are those that interpret the Word to be a set of metaphors with an educational purpose. And, then there are those christians whom have an even more liberal reading. The fact remains, as a christian, my relationship with god is mine. not yours.

A non-believer telling a believer how they should relate to god is completely rediculous. THAT is why you are a fool.

	26-02-2002 06:37									#327
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Pedophilia is not related to sexual orientation--it is related to a psychological disorder that is also rightly seen as criminal behavior.

Psychological disorder? How so? (can't wait to hear this...) Is it unnatural? Criminal behavior? sodomy is criminal behavior in Texas...

	26-02-2002 06:43									#328
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Psychological disorder? How so? (can't wait to hear this...) Is it unnatural? Criminal behavior? sodomy is criminal behavior in Texas...

That's the whole point.
It becomes a little tough to argue against pedophelia if it is made in such way that no one is hurt.

like fantasy for instance.

Or say age limits. How well do they apply?

I know some people who are considered minors, but are more sexually and psychologically adult than many grownups I know (polytoners included).

I'm not taking a stand, just making an observation. please don't attack, but rather respond.


Kaak, thanks.

I find it that often I understand so well how people are usually misunderstood or took for granted.

Furthermore, it bugs me when those who claim for free speech try to disallow it on taboo subjects. Previously it was disallowed to talk about gays at all. not it is only disallowed to talk about gays being bad.

as long as no harm is done or called for, i have no problem with anything.

	26-02-2002 06:44									#329
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It also used to be illegal for women to vote.

It also used to be illegal for two people of different races to marry.

It also used to be illegal to desegregate public buildings that were segregated based on race.

Texas current laws of sodomy is based on bigotry and ignorance. Just as there have been other laws based on bigotry and ignorance.

The American Psychology Association and the American Medical Association declared in the 70's, that homosexuality is not an illness or disease.

	26-02-2002 06:49									#330
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Homosexuality has to do with sexual orientation.
Paedophilia has to do with sexual orientation (oriented towards age rather than gender)

maybe someday the gov't will realize that it is not a disease, but merely a condition, genetic in nature. Maybe then they will lift the statutory rape laws and the sodomites and child abuses can together run around in elation at the end of their oppression!