17-07-2002 18:24									#151
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You'll need to start new game with this MOD.

	22-07-2002 21:10									#152
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Version 1.3 of patch suggestion MOD is out!
Compatibile with 1.29f patch.
Download from top of the thread.

Changes in ver 1.3

All things converted to 1.29f patch format.

Musketmen has now only defense AI flag selected (AI actualy doesn't need to use Musketmen at at offenese, since it has much better units for that job).

Helicopter can now transport 2 foot units.
This makes Helicopter more usefull transport unit.

Paratroopers get operational range of 8.
Since helicoptes got higher range too.

Some bugs fixed.

	22-07-2002 21:39									#153
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Newest version is posted at civ3.com MOD section too.

	23-07-2002 00:20									#154
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player1,

What do you think of the changes they made to the editor ?

D.

	23-07-2002 00:51									#155
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I'd like to bring up the matter of more HPs for modern units again. After playtesting extensively I have found no problems with giving one more HP for each age, so +1 HP for all medieval, +2 HP for all industrial and +3 HP for all modern age units.

Further 1 more movement point for all motorized sea units (i.e. destroyer, transport, battleship, AEGIS cruiser, carrier, submarine and nuke sub) strikes a good balance between them being to slow to be useful and too fast for the bombers.

Otherwise I LOVE the changes.

One more thing: How about incorporating Sevorak's citynames mod? http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...25&pagenumber=1
It's only an extension of the city names, with some spellchecking. It's a great addition to the game and it removes the pain to copy all the city names after each version change.

	23-07-2002 00:52									#156
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They are OK, but not crucial for MOD making.

They help in making scenarios, but they are not still as good as vanilla Civ2 (not changing of starting year or turn increments, no flat maps, no starting diplomacy, no objectives system).

Still many interesting things can be made with editor as it is.


P.S.
Now, I wait to see some finished scenarios to play and test.

	23-07-2002 01:02									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Killerdaffy I'd like to bring up the matter of more HPs for modern units again. After playtesting extensively I have found no problems with giving one more HP for each age, so +1 HP for all medieval, +2 HP for all industrial and +3 HP for all modern age units. Further 1 more movement point for all motorized sea units (i.e. destroyer, transport, battleship, AEGIS cruiser, carrier, submarine and nuke sub) strikes a good balance between them being to slow to be useful and too fast for the bombers.

HP thing is more matter of preference. I am more conservative in that matter.

I encourge you to make your own personal version of MOD, if you like more variable HP.


As for naval movment, there is a problem. If some Civ has Magellan Wonder, better movment plus Magellan would give pretty fast units.

And startgicly speaking, bomber should always have chance for counter attack, not drop & run of ships without penality.

(still I'll take that thing into consideration)

quote: Otherwise I LOVE the changes.

quote: One more thing: How about incorporating Sevorak's citynames mod? http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...25&pagenumber=1 It's only an extension of the city names, with some spellchecking. It's a great addition to the game and it removes the pain to copy all the city names after each version change.

Why not ask Sevorak to make custom version of "Patch suggestion MOD" with those names included?

	23-07-2002 01:17									#158
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quote: Originally posted by player1 I encourge you to make your own personal version of MOD, if you like more variable HP.

never fear, I MOD more extensively on top of this one...

quote: Originally posted by player1 As for naval movment, there is a problem. If some Civ has Magellan Wonder, better movment plus Magellan would give pretty fast units. And startgicly speaking, bomber should always have chance for counter attack, not drop & run of ships without penality. (still I'll take that thing into consideration)

it makes cross continent invasions easier, which - I think - pretty much everybody likes

quote: Originally posted by player1 Why not ask Sevorak to make custom version of "Patch suggestion MOD" with those names included?

Because Sevorak's cities (or the world's cities ) haven't changed since about december. I think (hope) that there will be more work happening in this thread. I did copy the names into the attached file. The only changes are the city and leader names taken from Sevorak's citynames mod version 3.16.

	23-07-2002 01:23									#159
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btw: Sevorak actively encourages the incorporation of his mod into others as long as full credit is given.

Oh, and shouldn't Stealth fighters have the intercept ability? They are fighters after all... (Also think F-22)

	23-07-2002 01:36									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Killerdaffy Oh, and shouldn't Stealth fighters have the intercept ability? They are fighters after all... (Also think F-22)

Hmm, actualy then are not.

They are tactical bombers.

And they don't have monted air to air comabt weapons at all.

Sthealth is their main weapon, but also main weaknes.
It makes thier dodging capabilities pretty weak compared to conventional Fighter.


P.S.
For for Civ3, now, with lethal boming included, they have actualy pretty good use.

	23-07-2002 01:38									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Killerdaffy it makes cross continent invasions easier, which - I think - pretty much everybody likes

exept AI

	23-07-2002 01:39									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Killerdaffy Oh, and shouldn't Stealth fighters have the intercept ability? They are fighters after all... (Also think F-22)

I've been asking this myself. And another question: Is the idea that jet fighters/F15's should upgrade to stealth fighters (and bombers to stealth bombers) at least debatable or outright silly?

EDIT: player1 already gave the answer. Have to think about that one ...

	23-07-2002 01:45									#163
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quote: Originally posted by player1 As for naval movment, there is a problem. If some Civ has Magellan Wonder, better movment plus Magellan would give pretty fast units.

I'd suggest to increase the movement of every naval unit except the galley by 1. Combined with Magellan this results in a maximum movement rate of 7, while the editor allows for a bomber range of 8. Not an ideal solution, but still better than the standard game IMO.

	23-07-2002 01:46									#164
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lockstep,

My solution to the problem is to add the F-22 or the new Euro-Fighter as a new unit. I have suggested a few units that they could have added in the

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=54738

(Quest for a Deeper Strategy) thread.

And no the F-15 and Jet Fighter should not upgrade to the F-117 stealth fighter. It is a misnomer to call it a fighter because it is a bomber. The F-117 designation is likely to do with it's original bureaucratic designation, not it's actual role.

D.

	23-07-2002 03:48									#165
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ok, you are right on the F-117 and the F-22 isn't really showing in the game. This also answers the question about the upgradebility of Jet Fighter / F-15 to Stealth fighte.

@ Gen. Dragolen
I think this is not the best thread for talking about new units, since it is intentionally rather conservative and supposed to be for pretty much everybody (i.e. the official patches). If units were to be changed, though, I think the explorer should be the first to go...

	23-07-2002 08:31									#166
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Killerdaffy,

You are right on both counts. Conservative thread, and the explorer is a useless unit in it's present form.

I keep hoping for more in the patches, but so far they have only fixed bugs and made a couple of tweaks.

This of course makes the wait for PTW all the more interesting. I'm hoping that they will take the other suggestions to heart and this game will grow even closer to it's full potential.

But since I've never have been a fan of being conservative, that is why I have the editor to play with. I'll go back to being a silent observer on this thread now. Never know what good ideas will come up...

D.

	23-07-2002 10:50									#167
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I gave Explorer defense of 1.

And that together with guerilla resourse pillaging strategies works well.
(with defense of 1, Explorer retreats in 50% of cases when attacked by foot unit)

	23-07-2002 15:38									#168
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quote: I'd suggest to increase the movement of every naval unit except the galley by 1. Combined with Magellan this results in a maximum movement rate of 7, while the editor allows for a bomber range of 8. Not an ideal solution, but still better than the standard game IMO.

I support lockstep's idea too.
IMO it would still be too low compared to land units, which could regroup to anywhere on the continent within the turn because of railroads, and air units which could regroup to anywhere in the world in 1 turn.

The bigger map you're playing on, the bigger handicap the naval units get because of their low movement.

	23-07-2002 21:03									#169
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Some plans for future versions:

I'll add +1movment for all Combustion and later naval units (subs inclded).

I plan to move Ironclad preq. to Industrialization.
That's way you'll have more time to play with Frigates.

And I also plan to lower anti-barbarain bonuses to:
+200% on chief. diff.
+100% on warlord
+50% on regent & monrach
no bonus for emperors or deities

	24-07-2002 23:34									#170
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Some plans for future versions: I'll add +1movment for all Combustion and later naval units (subs inclded). I plan to move Ironclad preq. to Industrialization. That's way you'll have more time to play with Frigates. And I also plan to lower anti-barbarain bonuses to: +200% on chief. diff. +100% on warlord +50% on regent & monrach no bonus for emperors or deities

Feedback, tweaks, suggestions?

If not, then you'll see new version tomorrow.

	25-07-2002 00:35									#171
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I like your changes.

Have you considered the idea to give archers (and longbowmen) zero-range bombard ability? It would make them a bit better on defense, and still useful at the same time as swordsmen.

I have also been thinking about giving a boost to Communism, so it is at least a good alternative to Monarchy for war more often than it was up to 1.21f. Perhaps Democracy-level worker speed? But if it's true that they changed it so the FP doubles the number of optimal cities for Communism, perhaps a boost is no longer necessary.

	25-07-2002 00:39									#172
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I like your changes too.

	25-07-2002 00:41									#173
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You could make ironclads sink in sea/ocean. Would give them a distinct role and also enlarge the age of sail.

	25-07-2002 00:44									#174
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One more thing.

I would increase the movement of Frigates (but not Galleons) along with all the combustion-and-later naval units.

This would make them still useful at the same time as the Ironclad, which is realistic and adds some strategy.

	25-07-2002 00:47									#175
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep You could make ironclads sink in sea/ocean. Would give them a distinct role and also enlarge the age of sail.

This is a good idea. I had also suggested reducing their movement by 1. But the problem is the AI. It likes to use ironclad-galleon pairs, and restricting the ironclad would restrict his invasion force. He's not smart enough to use Frigates when ironclads are available.

	25-07-2002 00:51									#176
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I'm all for zero-range bombardment. I tried it and found it works quite well. It also makes combined-arms approaches more valuable and even the AI knows how to use this...

The question is whether to give it to archers and longbows only or to all shooters. Hm...

	25-07-2002 00:52									#177
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quote: Originally posted by alexman I like your changes. Have you considered the idea to give archers (and longbowmen) zero-range bombard ability? It would make them a bit better on defense, and still useful at the same time as swordsmen.

Archers are already balanced, the way they are.
New pop rushing rules (no double shields for fisrt pop) made them a little better.

And I try to keep a Vanilla Civ3 flavor.

Also there is probelm of AI usability, and time neede to balance such unit to other units.

Still, it's a good idea.

Maybe for some other MOD?

quote: Originally posted by alexman I have also been thinking about giving a boost to Communism, so it is at least a good alternative to Monarchy for war more often than it was up to 1.21f. Perhaps Democracy-level worker speed? But if it's true that they changed it so the FP doubles the number of optimal cities for Communism, perhaps a boost is no longer necessary.

I was think about woker rate some time ago.
But, since it got a FP boost I'll leave it alone.

If it's not broken don't fix it.

	25-07-2002 00:53									#178
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Sorry, one more idea...

Do you ever wonder why AI England is always weak but AI Egypt is usually strong? Some of the AI civs have stupid build priorities. Nobody should have Wealth as a "build-often" priority! This is also the reason why many AI civs hardly ever build any factories.

Change build priorities to be more like what we humans have found to be optimal. Depending on the civ traits, place more emphasis on production, trade, and culture, and less emphasis on military units.

	25-07-2002 00:55									#179
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If the AI can't handle ironclads that are coastal only, then moving them to Industrialization is fine with me.

	25-07-2002 00:56									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Killerdaffy I'm all for zero-range bombardment. I tried it and found it works quite well. It also makes combined-arms approaches more valuable and even the AI knows how to use this... The question is whether to give it to archers and longbows only or to all shooters. Hm...

Yes, that's a good question.

If I would ever plan to add this idea, I would probably need to rework half of units in the game.