18-03-2002 10:32									#91
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quote: Originally posted by kobayashi We will be submitting a joint entry - and we intend to win.

You don't have a prayer

	19-03-2002 04:42									#92
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Alright, so here's what I have for the official rules

quote: Official Rules of Scenario Design Contest Number Five 1.) All entries must be received before December 1st, 2002. 2.) All entries must be include two zip files (if applicable); one containing the scenario files, the other containing sounds. 3.) All entries must be e-mailed to SDC. An e-mail listing a URL where the scenario may be downloaded from is NOT acceptable. 4.) The e-mail for SDC #5 is arcticor@aol.com 5.) Zip files must not be larger than 1.5 megabytes in size. 6.) All scenarios must reside within the SDC #5 theme; the Age of Sail, between the years 1500 Anno Domini and 1801 Anno Domini. 7.) Maps and resources provided by Scenario League are NOT required for use by designers. These are supplementary items only intended to help amateur designers only. All designers are free to use their own designs. 8.) The scenario MUST be designed on the MGE (Multi-Player Gold) of ToT (Test of Time) Civ2 platform. 9.) The scenario must be designed for PBEM (Play By E-Mail) in mind. 10.) Questions and comments about SDC #5 can be e-mail to warvoid@aol.com

Anything I missed or should add/remove?

I have been compiling some resources which i'll post later in a new thread. Mercator's bloody map site seems to be down permanently... grrrr...

	19-03-2002 05:32									#93
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Someone explain what PBEM is different from a normal multiplayer scenario? Do you not use events or something?

	19-03-2002 06:13									#94
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Will scenarios that are playable either as PBEMs or single player games get bonus points over scenarios that are only playable as a multi player/PBEM game?

	19-03-2002 08:25									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Frank Johnson Someone explain what PBEM is different from a normal multiplayer scenario? Do you not use events or something?

They're not particularly different. Events can still be used, but typically not events designed with a single player in mind... but you wouldn't want that in a mp game either. The only difference I can think of, is that a pbem does not have to be played to the end in one or two sittings. And you never see your opponent move. Preferably a good pbem scenario should also be a good multiplayer scenario, IMO.

Btw, Warwoid, is that 1.5 mb limit for both sounds and scenario zips? -or for each zip? I assume its the total size limit, but I could be wrong.

	19-03-2002 10:09									#96
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The issue of teams should be spelled out; ie. is there a max number of persons? Are teams to be registered in advance? When is the deadline for this?

The rules usually provide for the issuing of code names to entries by a contest administrator so that the judge doesn't know the names of the entrants. In the past the role of judge has been offered to the winner of the last contest, though in light of Warvoid's initiative in getting this contest going, I'm sure no one will object to his being the judge.

Contestants have traditionally been encouraged to keep their participation secret, as well as any details about their contest entry. This is to avoid scaring off less experienced contestants and to avoid disputes about who had what idea first.

	19-03-2002 11:25									#97
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Contestants have traditionally been encouraged to keep their participation secret, as well as any details about their contest entry. This is to avoid scaring off less experienced contestants and to avoid disputes about who had what idea first.

oops

	19-03-2002 11:30									#98
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Why don't we just call it a multi-player scenario to avoid confusion. The entires will be tested as 'live' games anyway. So how about dropping the word PBEM.

Another suggestion is to specifiy a minimum of X of the tribes must be playable by humans such that they have roughly equal chances of winning. (perhaps X=3 )

Also would like clarification on the teams thing. It has been mentioned that 9 months is more than enough time for any advantage from having more than one designer to disappear. WillemO and I are making one together for the experience, not because there is any advantage. However, if teams are not allowed, I would like to know ASAP.

	19-03-2002 15:58									#99
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quote: Originally posted by WarVoid I have been compiling some resources which i'll post later in a new thread. Mercator's bloody map site seems to be down permanently... grrrr...

Yes I know, sorry... The university server is giving problems. I got plenty of maps (much more than on the website) on my PC so just let me know what kind of maps you're looking for and I'll send you some sort of compilation.

	19-03-2002 17:32									#100
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quote: Originally posted by kobayashi We will be submitting a joint entry - and we intend to win.

You can say that again!!

quote: Originally posted by Fiera I'm al for team work being allowed. I mean, if the scn creators don't mind sharing the prize , where's the problem?

There's a prize to win?

quote: Originally posted by kobayashi However, if teams are not allowed, I would like to know ASAP.

Yes! Me too!!! I really can't find a reason why this should be prohibited, as stated before: no one makes a scenario entirely by himself. People want to use Mercator's maps, byhat they colaborate, one may use units and other graphics from the SL download page, by that there is colaboration, one sure uses some ideas from other scens (I think), playtesters say what's good and bad and make suggestions for improvement, that's colaboration.

	19-03-2002 18:57									#101
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For the third and last time: this should be SDC # 4, not 5.

	19-03-2002 19:49									#102
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Another question: can designers who take part testplay other works for the contest? Just curious...

	19-03-2002 23:27									#103
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Warvoid, about the rule regarding only MGE/ToT being acceptable platforms; why can't FW entries be allowed? I do have a copy of MGE, but it's really buggy on my computer, and so I'd prefer to use FW.

Working multiplayer scenarios can be designed using this platform - for example Kobayashi's ZWK. The only major differences in the two version is the bug which prevents MGE from recognizing objectivex3 cities, and the describe.txt.

Please allow the use of FW - there is no reason that I see that it should not be allowed. I promise I'll avoid using objectivex3 cities (hell, I might leave out objectives altogether).

One final question, the theme is the Age of Sail. Does this mean that the scenario has to have something to do with naval warfare, or does it just have to be within the timeframe?

	20-03-2002 04:10									#104
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quote: Originally posted by our_man Warvoid, about the rule regarding only MGE/ToT being acceptable platforms; why can't FW entries be allowed? I do have a copy of MGE, but it's really buggy on my computer, and so I'd prefer to use FW. Working multiplayer scenarios can be designed using this platform - for example Kobayashi's ZWK. The only major differences in the two version is the bug which prevents MGE from recognizing objectivex3 cities, and the describe.txt. Please allow the use of FW - there is no reason that I see that it should not be allowed. I promise I'll avoid using objectivex3 cities (hell, I might leave out objectives altogether). One final question, the theme is the Age of Sail. Does this mean that the scenario has to have something to do with naval warfare, or does it just have to be within the timeframe?

It should be no problem if you use FW, MGE Players can play it too...

And about the topic, Warvoid wrote earlier in this thread, that the scn should have both - naval warfare and ground combat...

	21-03-2002 03:32									#105
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Here's a few books which may prove useful:

'Naval Warfare in the Age of Sail' by Bernard Ireland.
Published by HarperCollins in 2000. ISBN: 0 00 414522 4

'The Illustrated Companion to Nelson's Navy' by Nicholas Blake and Richard Lawrence.
Published by Chatham Publishing in 1999. ISBN: 1 86176 090 6

'The Rise and Fall of British Naval Mastery' by Paul Kennedy
Published by Penguin Books in 1976 [a new edition came out in 2001 as part of the Penguin Classic History series]
ISBN: 0 141 39047 6

The last book is paricularly useful as it covers the geographic, economic and military factors which allowed Britian to build and sustain her navy.

In addtion, all the novels in Patrick O'Brian's excellent Aubrey/Maturin series have interesting technical essays at the end.

	21-03-2002 08:04									#106
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Jay - This is SDC # 5. # 4 was that crappy ToT-only one that never got off the ground.

our_man - I'd prefer you use MGE. Since the two main points i'm placing on this contest are the theme (Age of Sail) and PBEM, which requires the multiplayer abilities. Tho, if you have to, due to technical problems, use FW, it won't be rejected.

Unless i'm totally clueless here and you can play FW scn's in MP mode too....

BeBro - Yes you can both playtest and design. Tho I don't recommend it because it's very hard not to design without hindsight.

kobayashi - Yes teams are allowed. Max number for a team is three (3) people.

techumseh - I'm not going to be entering this contest. I'm a sci-fi scenario writer personally. I don't have any vices against anyone here, so I don't expect any problems to arise from the judging category. Tho I DO want another judge on the team, as you can't possibly expect to get a fair judgement from a single person as opionions do vary.

Case - There is no such things as bonus points. The scenario will be judged for it's accuracy and playability values.

Merc - You da man! I need all the maps I can get my hands on! Especially yours! Mainly Caribbean, Atlantic, North America, Europe and Africa.

Also, i'm looking for a map of England with Iceland and Denmark/Scandinavia also in it. Know where I can get one?

	21-03-2002 09:36									#107
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quote: Originally posted by WarVoid Jay - This is SDC # 5. # 4 was that crappy ToT-only one that never got off the ground.

Baloney! The last contest was SDC#3. It included a FW/MGE component AND a ToT component. And BTW, both components got off the ground. The ToT component received 4 entries as opposed to 2 for FW/MGE.

While I appreciate your initiative in getting this contest going, I suggest that there's more to running a SDC than you seem to think. A little more research would make sure things go smoothly.

	21-03-2002 11:02									#108
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Wheeeee!

Maybe this will finally give me the motivation to finish a particular scenario thats been sitting on my hard drive for almost four months... or maybe not, considering we have 8 months to complete our entries

	21-03-2002 11:55									#109
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quote: Originally posted by WarVoid Merc - You da man! I need all the maps I can get my hands on! Especially yours! Mainly Caribbean, Atlantic, North America, Europe and Africa.

Could we please get to use our own maps if we want to?
For example I find mercators map of the caribien far to small for a scenario of the type I have in mind...

Oh and there is one difference between regular MP scens and PBEM scens, a regular MP scenario can't have too many units as that would lag it down too much.
A pbem has no such limitations (although it might be wise to not overdo the units in any case as it might get tedious, however pbem scenarios do have more units than MP ones most of the time).

	21-03-2002 13:11									#110
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Baloney! The last contest was SDC#3. It included a FW/MGE component AND a ToT component. And BTW, both components got off the ground. The ToT component received 4 entries as opposed to 2 for FW/MGE.

That's absolutely correct

quote: While I appreciate your initiative in getting this contest going, I suggest that there's more to running a SDC than you seem to think. A little more research would make sure things go smoothly.

My thoughts as well.


In any case WV, I you need help, just ask. I'll be glad to help

	21-03-2002 18:46									#111
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I'll get onto it and find some maps... I won't be making any additional (custom-made) maps for this contest, by the way, if anyone was hoping that.

quote: Originally posted by Henrik Could we please get to use our own maps if we want to? For example I find mercators map of the caribien far to small for a scenario of the type I have in mind...

What?! You don't like my map? Well, my Caribbean map was one of my lesser maps anyway...

quote: Official Rules of Scenario Design Contest Number Five 7.) Maps and resources provided by Scenario League are NOT required for use by designers. These are supplementary items only intended to help amateur designers only. All designers are free to use their own designs.

I think that answers the question.

	22-03-2002 07:48									#112
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Baloney! The last contest was SDC#3. It included a FW/MGE component AND a ToT component. And BTW, both components got off the ground. The ToT component received 4 entries as opposed to 2 for FW/MGE. While I appreciate your initiative in getting this contest going, I suggest that there's more to running a SDC than you seem to think. A little more research would make sure things go smoothly.

I'm sorry, but if you remember, I wasn't even around when that was going on. I had some personal problem sorting to do at the time. I don't think you need to be so harsh toned about something so miniscule as the numbering of the contest. Do you realise how hard it is to scan through forty pages of archives on an 18k dial-up? I don't want or mean to offend you, but I don't think that worrying about the number is a priority moreover than getting all the materials and rules ready for this thing.

Jay - Please check your PM's. I have a request for you.

Merc - You answered Henrik's question for him, thank you.

	22-03-2002 09:38									#113
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quote: Originally posted by WarVoid I'm sorry, but if you remember, I wasn't even around when that was going on. I had some personal problem sorting to do at the time. I don't think you need to be so harsh toned about something so miniscule as the numbering of the contest. Do you realise how hard it is to scan through forty pages of archives on an 18k dial-up? I don't want or mean to offend you, but I don't think that worrying about the number is a priority moreover than getting all the materials and rules ready for this thing.

Sorry if you found it harsh toned. I know it's an enormous amount of work. Cam Hills and I took over the the last one after it was more or less abandoned. But there's no need to reinvent the wheel. There is lots of experience around in organizing SDC's, and you can't do better than Jay Bee. (I can see I'll be needing a code name now for sure)

	22-03-2002 18:26									#114
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I've tried to read thru this lengthy thread, but I haven't seen anything about code names. Are there going to be code names?

	22-03-2002 19:02									#115
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For what, the scns we make/have in work for the contest?

Why is this neccessary?

	22-03-2002 21:38									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Gothmog I've tried to read thru this lengthy thread, but I haven't seen anything about code names. Are there going to be code names?

quote: Originally posted by techumseh The rules usually provide for the issuing of code names to entries by a contest administrator so that the judge doesn't know the names of the entrants.

	23-03-2002 05:24									#117
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Yes, we will be issuing code names, if you plan on submitting a scenario, e-mail me and i'll send you a code name.

Hmmm, I can pull all kinds of weird Arabic words outta my arse to use as code names that nobody'd be able to hack! Wicked cool!

Maybe I should make a new thread on this with updated rules and sticky it to the top?

	23-03-2002 05:33									#118
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quote: Originally posted by WarVoid Yes, we will be issuing code names, if you plan on submitting a scenario, e-mail me and i'll send you a code name. Hmmm, I can pull all kinds of weird Arabic words outta my arse to use as code names that nobody'd be able to hack! Wicked cool! Maybe I should make a new thread on this with updated rules and sticky it to the top?

Umm, Warvoid.... Aren't you going to be the judge? If you also issue the code names, won't you know who the contestants are? Just a thought....

Signed,
Mr. X

	23-03-2002 17:25									#119
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The contest administrator and the judge have to be different persons in order for code names to make any sense. In the other contests, the administrator issued the code names, which were to be used as part of the file name in the contestant's entry. The entries were mailed to the administrator who forwarded them to the judge.

If you're going to use code names, I'd like to suggest using the names of famous naval commanders of the era.

	23-03-2002 23:35									#120
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Another big difference between MP en PBEM scenarios in my eyes is the use of diplomacy. This is much more limited in PBEM games.
Should the scenario concerning diplomacy be designed for PBEM or for MP, which creates more oppertunities and is more fun in my opinion. For instance allied sides are variabele, technology is transferable and 'real' negotiations are possible instead of negotiating with the AI.

Finally I have a question concerning the design of a scenario in general. What kind of items can't be adjusted anymore when you actually start building cities, units ect. The reason for this question is that I started building, but then discovered that I couldn't change countries names, flag colors etc . So that I don't run into the same problem again,

Thanx, Broman