24-03-2002 00:32									#121
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quote: Originally posted by broman Another big difference between MP en PBEM scenarios in my eyes is the use of diplomacy. This is much more limited in PBEM games. Should the scenario concerning diplomacy be designed for PBEM or for MP, which creates more oppertunities and is more fun in my opinion. For instance allied sides are variabele, technology is transferable and 'real' negotiations are possible instead of negotiating with the AI.

Actually I'd say its the total oposite.
Diplomacy is much more advanced in PBEMs than it is in normal games and normal MP as well.
Look at the AOW game (the original one) while only about 1/3 of the diplomacy is visible in the thread it should be evident that diplomacy is a very powerfull tool.

You can place tolls on rivers, passages, straits.
You can guarantee the security of minor nations (be this a barbarian state or a real civ).
You can have rights of passage treaties, issue loans, have peace treaties that actually work like real life peace treaties (that is, territory and money changes hands in exchange for the peace), etc.
Really the only limiting thing there is is the imagination of the humans involved, the humans signs treaties, then these treaties are conducted with the AI, or when the situation demands it, both players get online and conduct the diplomacy that way.
In some pbems I've been in we have even created text documents for treaties, with clauses and all (one of them is attached bellow).
This kind of thing does not happen when you are playing online MP (due to lack of time).

In addition the psycological aspects are a lot more important in pbems.
Blockades, bomb runs, raids, etc have a much more significant impact when you have no idea of the other players forces...

quote: Finally I have a question concerning the design of a scenario in general. What kind of items can't be adjusted anymore when you actually start building cities, units ect. The reason for this question is that I started building, but then discovered that I couldn't change countries names, flag colors etc . So that I don't run into the same problem again,

If you edit the civ names with the cheat menu the editors will aknolwedge the changes.


EDIT: replaced attachement with a better example.

	24-03-2002 18:53									#122
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quote: Originally posted by WarVoid Merc - You da man! I need all the maps I can get my hands on! Especially yours! Mainly Caribbean, Atlantic, North America, Europe and Africa. Also, i'm looking for a map of England with Iceland and Denmark/Scandinavia also in it. Know where I can get one?

Well, I found 22 decent maps, but they're all a bit small. If you want anything more , let me know.
I didn't find any England/Iceland/Denmark maps.

	24-03-2002 20:54									#123
	Inflate your Upload Space

What is the final ruling on team submissions?

	25-03-2002 03:32									#124
	Remove this text

I posted the ruling on team submissions already, Hodad.

3 ppl per team.

Thanks for the maps, Mercator! I appreciate the help.

	25-03-2002 13:59									#125
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Where do we apply for our code names?

	25-03-2002 14:36									#126
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Yeah, I want a code name now

	25-03-2002 20:16									#127
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Those who are *really* going to participate can e-mail WV to get their code names.

The contestants may, if they wish so, create a login utilizing their code name to discuss/comment/exchange info/whatever, with the explicit understanding that:

a) these logins will only be used in this forum
b) they will only be used in discussions related to the contest
c) once the contest is over these logins will be deleted

Just in case someone goes berserk and does something stupid with these logins, please remember that WV will know who you guys really are.

Thank you gentleman.

Last edited by Jay Bee on 26-03-2002 at 18:11

	25-03-2002 20:19									#128
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Does that mean WV is not going to be a judge?

	25-03-2002 20:22									#129
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WV is the chief of judges. I am just a member of the jury. I do not have his e-mail handy, that's why I did not write it out up there. You can PM him as well if that's easier.

	26-03-2002 07:37									#130
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Is it really that hard to send me an e-mail asking for a code name? Nah, didn't think so?

warvoid@aol.com

Just drop me an e-mail and i'll send you a code. Do NOT give it to anyone else unless you're working on a team, and only then to your team members.

	26-03-2002 08:07									#131
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Seriously, how are the code names to be handled? Who gives them out and who knows and doesn't know to whom they refer? I think this is an important point. Code names aren't just for fun, they have a real purpose, namely to provide objectivity in the judging.

	26-03-2002 09:01									#132
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As pointed out earlier, the point of having codenames is so the judges do not know who the contestants are. If the judges are issuing the codenames, there is no difference from using our known names.

(actually this is a moot point, some of the more experienced guys might be able to tell that a scenario was created by me just by playing it)

	26-03-2002 09:09									#133
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Kobayashi,

Re. "some of the more experienced guys might be able to tell that a scenario was created by me just by playing it"

You might be surprised how difficult it is to pick the author on the basis of the scenario alone unless you have a very obvious 'singature' to your games. Techumseh was quite surprised as I recall with the authors of the SDC#3 submissions when the names were finally revealed.

	26-03-2002 11:09									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Cam Kobayashi, Re. "some of the more experienced guys might be able to tell that a scenario was created by me just by playing it" You might be surprised how difficult it is to pick the author on the basis of the scenario alone unless you have a very obvious 'singature' to your games. Techumseh was quite surprised as I recall with the authors of the SDC#3 submissions when the names were finally revealed.

Actually, picking out Kobayashi's will be pretty easy. It'll be the only "Age of Sail" scenario with Klingon boarding parties!

	26-03-2002 14:08									#135
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The point of the code names is not that the judges do not know who the contestants are; the point is that nobody else knows who the contestants are. The scenarios will be posted somewhere and will be discussed on these boards. For that to be done properly, real identities should be hidden. As to the judges... come on, do you think I would be influenced by the author's identity? If there was a cash prize or something, that would be understandable. If not, even the suspect seems a bit out of place. In any event, you can always apply with a pseudonym as I did for the first SDC. Just open an email account in Hotamil and Yahoo and e-mail us from there.

	26-03-2002 20:17									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee The point of the code names is not that the judges do not know who the contestants are; the point is that nobody else knows who the contestants are. The scenarios will be posted somewhere and will be discussed on these boards. For that to be done properly, real identities should be hidden. As to the judges... come on, do you think I would be influenced by the author's identity? If there was a cash prize or something, that would be understandable. If not, even the suspect seems a bit out of place. In any event, you can always apply with a pseudonym as I did for the first SDC. Just open an email account in Hotamil and Yahoo and e-mail us from there.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. At least in SDC#2, in which I was a participant, and SDC#3, in which I was the judge, the judges DID NOT know the names of the participants. In the end it really doesn't matter if other contestants know who is who, but blind judging is very important to ensure fairness. People will invest thousands of hours in this contest; they need to know that there will be objective evaluation. No one is free from bias at some level, not even you JB.

Do you need a contest administrator? Someone to receive the files, issue code names and transmit the files to the judges without names attached? If you think a participant in the contest can do both, I'll volunteer. In the last contest, Cam was the administrator and a contestant.

	26-03-2002 21:12									#137
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Last edited by Jay Bee on 26-03-2002 at 21:37

	27-03-2002 05:27									#138
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Currently, i'm the contest admin. As it stands, techumseh's outline was the plan I was originally going to follow. It can be followed now, as neither of our two judges know the names of the currently registered entrants.

techumseh, if you want to be another judge, that'd be good too. When it comes down to judging your scen, i'll take your place and judge it myself.

How's that sound?

	27-03-2002 11:32									#139
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Thanks for the offer WV, but I've had a turn already. I'm willing to help in another capacity if I can. Kull was the winner of the FW contest last time, and William Keenan was runner up in ToT. Perhaps they might be asked if you need additional judges.

	27-03-2002 20:13									#140
	Put an end to popups!

Prepare to eat my dust fellow scenario creators!

Last edited by DarthVeda on 27-03-2002 at 20:23

	27-03-2002 23:45									#141
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I'm considering entering, but is there anyone in the judging panel I can pitch my scenario idea to first to see if it acceptable? There will be very little naval warfare involved in it, so I'm wondering if this would make it uneligible.

	28-03-2002 02:53									#142
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda Prepare to eat my dust fellow scenario creators!

DV, you poor deluded fool

	28-03-2002 03:10									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Case DV, you poor deluded fool

Indeed

	28-03-2002 09:18									#144
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quote: Originally posted by our_man I'm considering entering, but is there anyone in the judging panel I can pitch my scenario idea to first to see if it acceptable? There will be very little naval warfare involved in it, so I'm wondering if this would make it uneligible.

I not a judge but it stands to reason that if the theme is Age of Sail, the naval part must be substantial. If not, the theme would just be 1500-1800 A.D.

	28-03-2002 09:30									#145
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Cam You might be surprised how difficult it is to pick the author on the basis of the scenario alone unless you have a very obvious 'singature' to your games. Techumseh was quite surprised as I recall with the authors of the SDC#3 submissions when the names were finally revealed.

I'm brought this up because I need to know if I should bother to 'disguise' my (and WillemO) entry. There are many other traits other than Klingons - the format of the readme.txt, my standard three races/four tech tree branches format, corny (yet tasteful) event messages ...etc.

	28-03-2002 09:37									#146
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quote: Originally posted by kobayashi corny (yet tasteful) event messages

"We are the French, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile, ..."

	28-03-2002 10:34									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Cam "We are the French, you will be assimilated, resistance is futile, ..."

	28-03-2002 23:26									#148
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I think it should be clarified by the judges, kob. By Age of Sail, do they mean "in the age of sail" (this just covers 1500-1800), or is the center of the scenario supposed to be naval combat?

	29-03-2002 03:56									#149
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I remembered seeing this on page 2 of this thread.

quote: Originally posted by WarVoid Goingonit - The Age of Sail can be simulated in Civ2 very easily. We've seen it done with some of Case's and Gothmog's naval scenarios. But the focus of the scenario should not be entirely on naval combat. Rather, it should be a combination of land and naval warfare. For instance, in the 1630's, the Pirates of Tortuga and the Bahamas, collectively known as the Brethren of the Coast, attempted to gain a land empire in the Moskito Coast (modern Nicaragua), but were foiled by British and Spanish forces. That's a perfect example of combining both the naval and land aspects of the theme.

I assume this to mean that naval warfare doesn't have to be the focus at all, although a reasonable amount of sailing should be involved.

	29-03-2002 05:11									#150
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quote: Originally posted by winterfritz I assume this to mean that naval warfare doesn't have to be the focus at all, although a reasonable amount of sailing should be involved.

What i'm saying here is that the scenario will be judged for the COMBINATION of both land and naval warfare, as it truly was a test of both during the Age of Sail. But this is not the only thing the scenarios will be judged by.

They'll be judged by quality, originality, accuracy, dependability (i.e. no bugs) and play/replayability.

The actual subject of the scenario can be anything within the range, either partial or whole, of the years 1500 thru 1800. Whether you choose to utilise this entire period or focus on a single set of battles is entirely up to the author. As I said above, the scenario will be judged moreover by it's workings rather than it's subject.

A scenario is nothing if it has no value to the people that play them.