09-03-2002 03:09									#31
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quote: English should be the official language.

I'll ask you the same question I asked everyone else; what does that imply?

quote: Now you have bilingual classes (English as a 2nd language) where the kids learn both languages, and don't really learn either.

That's a fault of the school system, not the policy. They need to be initially taught in Spanish, else their development would fall behind that of their peers.

quote: They NEED English in this nation, they don't need Spanish, Indian, or any other language. They severly limit themselves.

If think they can get by without learning English (as some obviously can), who are you to force them?

	09-03-2002 03:16									#32
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"Killing kittens" is more useful than trying to make you grasp reality.
People with your outlook are epitome of the problem. Yes, problem.
Thanks, but I believe I'll go watch grass grow.

	09-03-2002 03:16									#33
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dp

	09-03-2002 03:18									#34
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quote: Maybe I should learn Spanish? Uh, no. That's the point you can't seem to grasp. Lets have 100 dialects posted along streets and in cafeterias.

And you're criticizing me for misreading? My point was, the state language language might as well be Spanish.

quote: You want to be here, learn the damned language.

In many areas in the US, particularly in the South-West, the local lingua franca is Spanish. That is the "damned language."

	09-03-2002 03:18									#35
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Stefu: the relationship between spanish and english in america is VASTLY different than the relationship of swedish to finnish in finland. From my experiences in Finland, Swedish would be extremely useful, and often necessary. However, I could go my whole life in America and never utter a Spanish phrase. Perhaps not if I went to Texas, but I have nothing wrong with giving Texas to Mexico. Better yet, make it independent. They deserve to be, those lone star buffoons.

	09-03-2002 03:19									#36
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quote: I'll ask you the same question I asked everyone else; what does that imply?

All official business is done in English. All official paperwork only has to be done in English.

It makes things much easier.

quote: If think they can get by without learning English (as some obviously can), who are you to force them?

But most of them can't. Or do you think that most of the Mexicans in labor intensive work WANT to do that work and be payed so low (under the min wage). One reason is they can't understand the language.

quote: Enforcing an official language on the populace by reducing the services available in their native tongue isn't the way to go, Imran.

Might be tough, but it is the way to go. Then they'll make pains to learn the language ASAP.

	09-03-2002 03:21									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo And you're criticizing me for misreading? My point was, the state language language might as well be Spanish. [/QUOTE} In many areas in the US, particularly in the South-West, the local language franca is Spanish. That is the "damned language."

Neither "language language" should be Spanish, in the U.S.


Wrong, again.
Actually, Dade County Florida is the only county in the U.S. that trips over their stupidity in that manner.

	09-03-2002 03:24									#38
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We've survived for so long without an official language, why would we want one now? We've even had much higher levels of immigration than now.

Where there are problems, we can address them. It doesn't take national laws.

	09-03-2002 03:27									#39
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quote: From my experiences in Finland, Swedish would be extremely useful, and often necessary.

Correct if wrong, but you spent main part of your trip in Helsinki, yes? In Helsinki, Swedish is useful, I agree, as it generally is in coastal areas and Åland. However, here in East Finland, Swedish is extremely non-useful. You hear Russian more often than Swedish, here. Heck, you hear Vietnamese more often than Swedish, here. You could easily go your whole life in Finland without speaking Swedish.

	09-03-2002 03:28									#40
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I'm not sure what the statistics are on this, but I'm sure that Hispanics know the importance of learning English when they migrate into the United States. I wonder if there are any statistics that show that the majority of Hispanics are willing to learn English??

If that is the case, then we do not need to have English as an official language to compel Hispanics to learn English. They're already willing to do that. As well as all the other immigrant groups, such as Cambodians.

	09-03-2002 03:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo How can I respond back if I don't know what you're advocating?

I am advocating action to improve non-native English speakers English. Maybe an intensive x-week course given to all new immigrants as part of the residency requirement. (No exams or tests just compulsory attendance)

quote: What does "promoting" a language imply?

Rather than spending money on accomodating foreign languages, spend the money helping people understand English.

quote: the state wants to outlaw non-English political debates

I don't think that is necessary, state actions to improve English literacy should make such foreign language political debates unnecessary.

	09-03-2002 03:30									#42
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quote: From my experiences in Finland, Swedish would be extremely useful, and often necessary.

In the south, and on the western coast maybe, but in Central Finland Swedish is universally unspoken.

	09-03-2002 03:32									#43
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quote: All official business is done in English. All official paperwork only has to be done in English. It makes things much easier.

So all of the businesses that are run by Spanish, Mandarin, etc. only speakers should take their capital to more friendly nations? All workers who don't speak English should go back to their original countries? That's absurd! Economically, that's nonsense!

quote: But most of them can't. Or do you think that most of the Mexicans in labor intensive work WANT to do that work and be payed so low (under the min wage). One reason is they can't understand the language.

You wrote that official paperwork should be in English. Shouldn't that confuse them even more?

It's not about what I want, it's what they want. If they're too old to be fluent in English, I'm not going to condemn them.

quote: Neither "language language should be Spanish, in the U.S.

What is it that you were writing about remedial English?

quote: Wrong, again. Actually, Dade County Florida is the only county in the U.S. that trips over their stupidity in that manner.

Eh? I wasn't referring to governmental policies, but what the people of the region speak. And like I wrote, Spanish is the predominant language in many regions of the country.

	09-03-2002 03:33									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun If that is the case, then we do not need to have English as an official language to compel Hispanics to learn English. They're already willing to do that.

In some cases, but see Ramo for an illustration of feet dragging.

	09-03-2002 03:39									#45
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quote: I am advocating action to improve non-native English speakers English. Maybe an intensive x-week course given to all new immigrants as part of the residency requirement. (No exams or tests just compulsory attendance)

I have no problems with that.

quote: Rather than spending money on accomodating foreign languages,

Riiight. So when it comes time to fill out the income tax form, Spanish-only speakers will do what, exactly?

Printing a dual set of forms and hiring people who are literate in Spanish can't possibly be economically significant. Why not offer some people a little courtesy?

quote: spend the money helping people understand English.

That's what the state does...

	09-03-2002 03:41									#46
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quote: So all of the businesses that are run by Spanish, Mandarin, etc. only speakers should take their capital to more friendly nations? All workers who don't speak English should go back to their original countries? That's absurd! Economically, that's nonsense!

Hmmm, what are these words Ramo has placed in my mouth...


Go to the DMV... ask them in how many languages they have driving tests... it is something like 30-40. Every government document has that. Why? No state language... pare down 30 documents to only 1. That cheapens things, doesn't it?

If you want to do business with the government here, then you can learn English.

	09-03-2002 03:41									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui All official business is done in English. All official paperwork only has to be done in English. It makes things much easier.

Considering that there are approximately 300 languages spoken in the US, I would imagine that it would make things a lot easier.

	09-03-2002 03:45									#48
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Ramo, IF you were to emigrate to country X would you think it reasonable not to learn to speak their language. To make the situation fair, assume that the number of English speakers in country X is akin to the number of Americans (English native speakers) who can speak Spanish.

Do you think that they should accomodate you because you haven't bothered to learn the language?

	09-03-2002 03:47									#49
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Isn't it blatantly obvious that's how he thinks, Sagacious Dolphin?

	09-03-2002 03:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Riiight. So when it comes time to fill out the income tax form, Spanish-only speakers will do what, exactly?

Teach them how to fill it out?

Heck people who speak English have trouble with tax returns and have to be told how to fill them out.

	09-03-2002 03:49									#51
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quote: Hmmm, what are these words Ramo has placed in my mouth...

Sorry about that.

I mis-interpreted "official" in front of business (I was getting what you were saying confused with what SH was saying). I thought you were referring to all business.

Anyways, it strikes me as unreasonable that seperate forms shouldn't exist for Spanish-only speakers, considering how many such people there are in the country.

How economically significant can this possibly be?

	09-03-2002 03:49									#52
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Isn't it blatantly obvious that's how he thinks, Sagacious Dolphin?

Just want explicit confirmation on what he would do if he was an immigrant.

	09-03-2002 03:50									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Teach them how to fill it out? Heck people who speak English have trouble with tax returns and have to be told how to fill them out.

	09-03-2002 03:53									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Anyways, it strikes me as unreasonable that seperate forms shouldn't exist for Spanish-only speakers, considering how many such people there are in the country.

Spanish isn't the only other language spoken in the US. Why do you feel the need to discriminate against the aprox. 300 languages spoken here.

	09-03-2002 03:54									#55
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quote: Anyways, it strikes me as unreasonable that seperate forms shouldn't exist for Spanish-only speakers, considering how many such people there are in the country.

What? You want Britian to have forms in Hindi seeing how many Indians there are in that country? They have to learn the linga franca, same as when you have to go to another country.

I don't think if you go to Mexico, they'll accomidate an English speaker .

	09-03-2002 03:57									#56
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quote: Ramo, IF you were to emigrate to country X would you think it reasonable not to learn to speak their language. To make the situation fair, assume that the number of English speakers in country X is akin to the number of Americans (English native speakers) who can speak Spanish.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect immigrants to learn the native language. But they certainly shound't be forced into doing it.

I would definitely learn country X's primarily language, though.

quote: Do you think that they should accomodate you because you haven't bothered to learn the language?

I think they should print government forms in English and whatever the primary language of country X is, if English speakers are such a large portion of the country.

quote: Isn't it blatantly obvious that's how he thinks, Sagacious Dolphin?

	09-03-2002 03:58									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I don't think if you go to Mexico, they'll accomidate an English speaker .

The Mexican police will acomodate Benjamin Franklin just fine from what I've heard about them.

	09-03-2002 04:02									#58
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quote: Spanish isn't the only other language spoken in the US. Why do you feel the need to discriminate against the aprox. 300 languages spoken here.

It's a courtesy that we should offer Spanish-speaking people due to the large number of them. But gov't forms aren't my main problem. It's Cali's and SH's suggested coercive policies that I have serious problems with.

quote: What? You want Britian to have forms in Hindi seeing how many Indians there are in that country? They have to learn the linga franca, same as when you have to go to another country. I don't think if you go to Mexico, they'll accomidate an English speaker .

Somehow, I think neither Hindi-only speakers in Britian, nor English-only speakers in Mexico make up a comparable portion of the population that Spanish-only speakers do here.

	09-03-2002 04:05									#59
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quote: Teach them how to fill it out? Heck people who speak English have trouble with tax returns and have to be told how to fill them out.

Shouldn't that money go to educating them in English? I thought you were against "accomodating" other languages.

	09-03-2002 04:05									#60
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And we should say that only knowing Spanish is ok?

No, we should promote English as the sole language. Division by language isn't a social need.