09-03-2002 04:08									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Might be tough, but it is the way to go. Then they'll make pains to learn the language ASAP.

I have more experience with this than you (or almost anybody else here) does. What you get is an embattled minority who have now become single-issue voters.

	09-03-2002 04:08									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo It's a courtesy that we should offer Spanish-speaking people due to the large number of them.

Why should fewer numbers negate the principle involved, Ramo? If you are saying that a Luiseno only speaker should have to know the language in order to read government forms, why shouldn't the same principle be applied to a Spanish only speaker? Numbers seems like a fairly arbitrary and capricious way to decide these things.

	09-03-2002 04:09									#63
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I have more experience with this than you (or almost anybody else here) does. What you get is an embattled minority who have now become single-issue voters.

You mean like Cuban-Americans in Florida?

	09-03-2002 04:10									#64
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quote:

Teach them how to fill it out?

Heck people who speak English have trouble with tax returns and have to be told how to fill them out.


quote by Ramo:
"Shouldn't that money go to educating them in English? I thought you were against "accomodating" other languages. "



You're one of the few who can miss a point and illustrate a point at the same time.

	09-03-2002 04:11									#65
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Look, if they can't get by without English, what's it to you? Obviously, there are large Hispanic communities that fulfill their needs.

	09-03-2002 04:11									#66
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quote: Numbers seems like a fairly arbitrary and capricious way to decide these things

No it isn't. You just have to ask yourself what's reasonable.

	09-03-2002 04:13									#67
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quote: Why should fewer numbers negate the principle involved, Ramo?

The only principle involved is utilitarianism.

	09-03-2002 04:15									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You mean like Cuban-Americans in Florida?

Uhhh...the parallel's not really there. They might be single-issue voters, but it's not due to their position as a linguistic minority.

	09-03-2002 04:17									#69
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No it isn't. You just have to ask yourself what's reasonable.

If we accept Ramo's arguement that people who don't speak the language of a country have a right to be accomodated by the government, how can one then turn around and apply a de minimis arguement to deny that right to others?

	09-03-2002 04:18									#70
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Read Ramo's post.

	09-03-2002 04:18									#71
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That ain't my argument.

	09-03-2002 04:20									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo The only principle involved is utilitarianism.

Then Imran appears to have the stronger arguement becuase it would streamline government to a certain extent if it didn't have to print official forms in multiple languages.

	09-03-2002 04:23									#73
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One other language federally. And localities should decide which languages they need.

Whatever minor benefit you get from streamlining the gov't is undermined by excluding Spanish-speaking people from gov't forms.

	09-03-2002 04:25									#74
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The only point Ramo has is that laziness in learning the language of the country one lives in is acceptable.
That's weak.

My point was that I shouldn't be forced to learn another language to get a job in the U.S. job market.
Naturally, he takes exception to that, which is too damned bad.

	09-03-2002 04:31									#75
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My point is that we should let people live as they please. Naturally, he takes exception to that, which is too damn bad.

quote: My point was that I shouldn't be forced to learn another language to get a job in the U.S. job market. Naturally, he takes exception to that, which is too damned bad.

Obviously, we should undermine the US economy and put innumerable people into poverty all because SH doesn't have the necessary skills for the jobs he wants.

	09-03-2002 04:36									#76
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It has nothing to do with job skills, Ramo. Zip, zero, notta.
You want to whine about it like your view is representative of all Hispanics, and it's most certainly not.
Check the name of the person referenced in my Letter.

	09-03-2002 04:42									#77
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Yes, in this instance, I think that we should prod Spanish speaking people to speak English. If they want to live as they please, fine... they just get excluded.

Learning English is an essential job skill in the US, and it should be made official.

	09-03-2002 04:44									#78
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quote: It has nothing to do with job skills, Ramo. Zip, zero, notta.

You just wrote that knowing Spanish is necessary for some job you need (not necessarily in doing the job). Just like how knowing English is necessary for the vast majority of jobs out there.

And why should I care if my views are representative of any ethnicity?

BTW, I'm not Hispanic (you seem to be implying that...).

	09-03-2002 04:46									#79
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quote: Learning English is an essential job skill in the US, and it should be made official.

Obviously, learning English is not an essential job skill in the US, else there wouldn't be any non-English speakers with jobs.

	09-03-2002 04:47									#80
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I wrote of a JOB FAIR, Ramo. Not a job. Not a particular job that I want.
Do you comprehend anything or do you just not read?
I don't care if you're Hispanic, Irish, or Mandarin Chinese.

	09-03-2002 04:50									#81
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quote: Shouldn't that money go to educating them in English? I thought you were against "accomodating" other languages. "

Giving them forms in Spanish is accomodating, teaching them what the English forms mean is aiding them in their English language skills.

	09-03-2002 04:50									#82
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I think this site might be of interest to some in this thread.

	09-03-2002 04:56									#83
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quote: I wrote of a JOB FAIR, Ramo. Not a job. Not a particular job that I want. Do you comprehend anything or do you just not read?

How am I supposed to know what you're referring to?

"My point was that I shouldn't be forced to learn another language to get a job in the U.S. job market."

Job seems like a more intuitive explanation than job fair.

quote: Giving them forms in Spanish is accomodating, teaching them what the English forms mean is aiding them in their English language skills.

I fail to see a significant difference. By giving them a Spanish and English form, they can compare and learn English in that manner. You're just streamlining the process and reducing cost by giving them Spanish forms.

And frankly, IRS forms aren't exactly the best places to have an English exam.

	09-03-2002 04:58									#84
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How are you supposed to know? Read what you're arguing against. That would be an excellent start.


What's really humorous is that English is the "language of the world", not just Texas and Iowa.

Go ahead Ramo. Tell me I'm wrong on this point, too.
This site is run by a Greek; in what language?
Spanish? Noooooooo. It appears to be English.
Imagine that!?!

	09-03-2002 05:00									#85
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Your point being...

	09-03-2002 05:03									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo And frankly, IRS forms aren't exactly the best places to have an English exam.

If we are being frank, what percentage of Hispanics will be earning enough that they will have to fill out a tax return? If they are earning over the threshold limit you would think that they must be English speaking or afford someone to do the form for them.

(I don't know that much about the tax system in the US and the threshold requirement for tax assessments, but immigrant workers to the UK certainly would not earn enough to warrant filling in a tax return)

	09-03-2002 05:04									#87
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My point being, I guess, that the money sending you to school is money down the rat hole, because you evidently are too stupid or too lazy to read anything.
You disagree for the mere fact of disagreeing.


That's it. I probably just bought myself time in Mingapulco.
Over Ramo. That's disgusting.

	09-03-2002 05:04									#88
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quote: How are you supposed to know? Read what you're arguing against. That would be an excellent start.

Job/Job Fair, whatver. You were referring to both. I thought you were specifically referring to the job in this case.

It's irrelevent anyways. My point remains the same.

	09-03-2002 05:07									#89
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quote: If we are being frank, what percentage of Hispanics will be earning enough that they will have to fill out a tax return? If they are earning over the threshold limit you would think that they must be English speaking or afford someone to do the form for them.

Earned income tax credit?

And you edited that first part in, SH.

	09-03-2002 05:07									#90
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quote: I fail to see a significant difference. By giving them a Spanish and English form, they can compare and learn English in that manner. You're just streamlining the process and reducing cost by giving them Spanish forms.

The difference is prinicpal and the pushing of learning the language. If you do all the work for them they will never learn the language, and there is no way that they would even bother reading the English language version to compare with the Spanish version.