09-03-2002 05:08									#91
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Beginning in 1997, high school students in New York may take their Regents exams, except the English test, in a foreign language. After the tests are prepared in English, they will be translated into as many languages as officials deem necessary, including Spanish, Creole and Chinese. (Source: New York Post)

Can anyone confirm this fact I found on the site I linked to earlier? Please prove to me that it's false.

	09-03-2002 05:09									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Earned income tax credit?

Please specify what you mean.

	09-03-2002 05:12									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Please specify what you mean.

Right here

	09-03-2002 05:16									#94
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quote: The difference is prinicpal and the pushing of learning the language. If you do all the work for them they will never learn the language, and there is no way that they would even bother reading the English language version to compare with the Spanish version.

You drastically increase overhead. You'll need instructors for all the people who speak Spanish. It just isn't practical (if it were, I would advocate that).

quote: Please specify what you mean.

Low income people, particularly parents, even people who don't make enough to file an income tax return, get a credit of a few thousand dollars (IIRC, it's positively proportional to income, and then peters off after $12k p.a. or so).

	09-03-2002 05:18									#95
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quote: Obviously, learning English is not an essential job skill in the US, else there wouldn't be any non-English speakers with jobs.

Laborer jobs. You want to keep them down?

You want a class of maids, garbage collectors, etc, simply because you want to be accomidating? I'd like to see them get good jobs.

	09-03-2002 05:19									#96
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Way to go and complicate tax credits. Why don't you guys just shove tax credits straight into pay checks like we do here?

Family tax credits etc.. all get calculated by the employer/payroll system over here

	09-03-2002 05:21									#97
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quote: Laborer jobs. You want to keep them down? You want a class of maids, garbage collectors, etc, simply because you want to be accomidating? I'd like to see them get good jobs.

Again, I strongly believe that they should learn English, but I'm neither going to force them, nor am I going to screw them over in the short term.

	09-03-2002 05:22									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Obviously, learning English is not an essential job skill in the US, else there wouldn't be any non-English speakers with jobs. Laborer jobs. You want to keep them down? You want a class of maids, garbage collectors, etc, simply because you want to be accomidating? I'd like to see them get good jobs.

You leave out lawn maintenance, busboys, and dishwashers.
Again, Ramo is not indicative of...anything.

	09-03-2002 05:24									#99
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What are you on about now?

	09-03-2002 05:27									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo What are you on about now?

I'm on my way out the door.

Later, all.

	09-03-2002 05:27									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Whatever minor benefit you get from streamlining the gov't is undermined by excluding Spanish-speaking people from gov't forms.

We would be spending tens of billions of dollars to cater to the needs of around 21 million people. At that price, I think that they can be inconvenienced just a little.

	09-03-2002 05:28									#102
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quote: Again, I strongly believe that they should learn English, but I'm neither going to force them, nor am I going to screw them over in the short term.

The only way to seriously get them to learn English, as soon as possible IS to screw them in the short term. It makes it economically important then to learn the language.

	09-03-2002 05:29									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo You drastically increase overhead. You'll need instructors for all the people who speak Spanish. It just isn't practical (if it were, I would advocate that).

Why not have it as one of the English lessons for immigrants as we discussed earlier? I think it would be worth it.

	09-03-2002 05:30									#104
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quote: We would be spending tens of billions of dollars to cater to the needs of around 21 million people. At that price, I think that they can be inconvenienced just a little

You spend tens of billions of dollars on government forms? Talk about a frigging bureaucracy!

	09-03-2002 05:34									#105
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You spend tens of billions of dollars on government forms?

We would be spending tens of billions to institute the dual language system that Ramo advocated earlier in the thread. I'm presuming that it would be similar in structure to Canada's. Hence my cost estimate.

	09-03-2002 05:42									#106
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quote: We would be spending tens of billions of dollars to cater to the needs of around 21 million people. At that price, I think that they can be inconvenienced just a little.

Source, please.

quote: We would be spending tens of billions to institute the dual language system that Ramo advocated earlier in the thread. I'm presuming that it would be similar in structure to Canada's. Hence my cost estimate.

Most forms would be in the national level for Canada, if I'm not mistaken. Over here, it's at the state and local level.

quote: The only way to seriously get them to learn English, as soon as possible IS to screw them in the short term. It makes it economically important then to learn the language.

What about the more elderly? Hell, what about people in their 20's? Not everyone can learn a language rapidly.

	09-03-2002 05:44									#107
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quote: Why not have it as one of the English lessons for immigrants as we discussed earlier? I think it would be worth it.

We're working under the premise that the lessons didn't work too well. If the lessons did work, they would be English speakers (and would have no need for a Spanish form).

	09-03-2002 05:49									#108
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quote: What about the more elderly? Hell, what about people in their 20's? Not everyone can learn a language rapidly.

Well, they can try.

Nothing works without some incentive... and making English official is the kick in the pants that is needed.

	09-03-2002 05:49									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Look, if they can't get by without English, what's it to you? Obviously, there are large Hispanic communities that fulfill their needs.

Thats the problem. You are creating a mini country within a country. A community of people who dont speak the language of the people who live outside that community. Wheres all the unity you communists are always going on about?

	09-03-2002 05:50									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo We're working under the premise that the lessons didn't work too well. If the lessons did work, they would be English speakers (and would have no need for a Spanish form).

So we are working under the premise that people cannot learn a new language even to a basic standard?

If people want to live and work in another country they have to learn, no matter how hard it is. They should just keep going to classes until such point that they can speak the language.

	09-03-2002 05:57									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Source, please.

For which part?

The cost estimate is based on the cost of Canada's duel langauge system from 1980 to 1990 which totaled 6.7 billion.

The guesstimate is based on the 1990 Census (if you know where I can see the results of the 2000 Census please tell me.) which stated that 97% of Americans spoke English "well" or "very well."

quote: Most forms would be in the national level for Canada, if I'm not mistaken. Over here, it's at the state and local level.

Which in some cases doubles the State/city's printing budget from what it otherwise would have been.

	09-03-2002 05:58									#112
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quote: Well, they can try. Nothing works without some incentive... and making English official is the kick in the pants that is needed.

The incentive is to get a much better job. If they're capable of learning English, I think that's incentive enough.

quote: Thats the problem. You are creating a mini country within a country. A community of people who dont speak the language of the people who live outside that community.

And they chose to do so. What's wrong with free association?

quote: Wheres all the unity you communists are always going on about?

Ask che. I'm an anarchist.

quote: So we are working under the premise that people cannot learn a new language even to a basic standard?

If you give a person with a very rudimentary understanding of a language a bunch of technical jargon that's only used for his tax form, do you expect that to stick well?

quote: If people want to live and work in another country they have to learn, no matter how hard it is.

Some people aren't bright enough in terms of language skills. Some people aren't old enough. There's a huge Hispanic community here. They don't have to learn to get by.

quote: They should just keep going to classes until such point that they can speak the language.

I also believe so. But again, I'm not going to force anyone into doing that.

	09-03-2002 06:00									#113
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quote: The incentive is to get a much better job.

Yes, and making it offical will solidify that incentive.

quote: I also believe so. But again, I'm not going to force anyone into doing that.

But I am .

	09-03-2002 06:00									#114
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quote: The cost estimate is based on the cost of Canada's duel langauge system from 1980 to 1990 which totaled 6.7 billion.

In a country with about a 30 percent minority speaking French, yes. That averages to 670 million a year (canadian or american $, BTW?) or ~25$ per capita per annum. Not exactly peanuts, but not exactly mad amounts of money. With a much lower figure for non-Anglophones in the States, wouldn't the costs also be much lower?

	09-03-2002 06:02									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo And they chose to do so. What's wrong with free association?

You call it free association? If dont know english then they arent as free to associate with the rest of society are they?

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Ask che. I'm an anarchist.

Youre a loony.

	09-03-2002 06:03									#116
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quote: For which part? The cost estimate is based on the cost of Canada's duel langauge system from 1980 to 1990 which totaled 6.7 billion.

Why should that imply the dual-language system is so much more expensive than an analagous single-language system.

Especially if the <3% figure is valid for Spanish-only speakers?

	09-03-2002 06:12									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why should that imply the dual-language system is so much more expensive than an analagous single-language system.

It introduces costs and inefficencies that would not have been there otherwise.

quote: Especially if the <3% figure is valid for Spanish-only speakers?

As I stated earlier, you really shouldn't be so prejudiced as to assume that the only people who don't know the language are Hispanic. There are signifigant minorities that are in the same boat of which the Chinese are one example.

	09-03-2002 06:22									#118
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I believe one of the great things about humanity is its diversity.

Language is one of the components of any culture in any part of the world. So, isn't a country that declares one language to be official basically saying that it does not appreciate humanity's diversity to some extent?

	09-03-2002 06:26									#119
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Yep, just like those evil European, anti-diversity countries .

	09-03-2002 07:38									#120
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quote: It introduces costs and inefficencies that would not have been there otherwise.

I didn't argue that a dual language system is more expensive than a single language system, just that the difference shouldn't be that signficant, particularly given that we're dealing with <3% of the population..

My point was, how am I supposed to compare the dual to single-language policy with only the dual figure?

quote: As I stated earlier, you really shouldn't be so prejudiced as to assume that the only people who don't know the language are Hispanic.

Learn the meaning of "<" before ranting about "prejudice."

quote: Which in some cases doubles the State/city's printing budget from what it otherwise would have been.

Explain.

quote: Yes, and making it offical will solidify that incentive.

And it has the potential of screwing a lot of people over. A lowered wage isn't as diastrous as landing in prison for tax evasion or somesuch..

quote: You call it free association? If dont know english then they arent as free to associate with the rest of society are they?

If they choose to associate with the rest of society, they can choose to learn English. The point is that it's their choice. Not yours or the state's.