22-03-2002 00:11									#91
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The Migs have poor quality control and reliability and sensors and weapons. They have decent power...which is what kids and amateur wargamers evaluate.

	22-03-2002 00:16									#92
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--" Yeah, like in Iraq in Yougoslavia, like in Afghanistan. Allways need allies. True sighn of great power."

Serb, I just want to say welcome to the Off Topic Forum. It's nice for us poor stereotyped Americans to have someone disgustingly nationlistic from another country around.

I just had to comment because I found your above comments so amusing. I mean, if we went unilateral we'd get so much political crap thrown at us we'd have to get more shovels. As things stand, we're still being accused of being unilateralist. If you're taking coalition building as a sign of weakness, well, let's just say I've learned a lot about you in this thread.

Anyway, back to the topic. Why has no-one mentioned the A-10 yet? You have to admire an aircraft designed around a Really Big Gun (tm).

Wraith
"This calls for a subtle blend of psychology and extreme violence."
-- ("The Young Ones")

	22-03-2002 00:23									#93
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quote: Originally posted by GP The Migs have poor quality control and reliability and sensors and weapons. They have decent power...which is what kids and amateur wargamers evaluate.

The American wargames?
Wargames are really brilliant source of knowledge. Tell me, is it because of those games you seriously believe that Alexander was Romulan, Ottoman or something? Now I see how you study history in America- playing wargames which evaluate Migs as bad planes, and seeing Hollywood movies that claims that Americans saved everyone’s asses.

	22-03-2002 00:27									#94
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Aircraft vary from era to era, so it's hard to say what is the "best".

In the first world war, as mentioned, the early Fokker single wing was the "fokker scourge" that ruled the skies.
The allies countered with the Camel, the germans countered that with Albatross (this is the machine that Richtofoffen got the majority of his kills in, not the more famous DR-1 triplane.), the allies countered with the Spad 13 and SE-5, the Germans with the Fokker DR-7, and the final allied answer was the Bristol Brisfit, a two-seater that dominated the sky in october-november 1918.

Hard to say during the twenties, but in the 30s, the first plane to come out ahead was a Polish design, the PZL-7C.
This was quickly overtaken by a Russian design, the I-16 Rata,
and bt 1939, two types vied for supremessy, the Spitfire MkI and the BF-109E.

The battle of Britain showed the Spit to have a slight combat edge (tests flown with captured 109s revealed it's weaknesses).

About the Zero:
When first encountered, it was unstopable, because of poor allied tactics, not through superior design.
The Model 21 Zero-sen lacked self-sealing fuel tanks, pilot armor, and many had radios removed to increase range (a major tactical error), slow firing 20mm cannons and rifle caliber Mgs.
It could out turn and outclimb any allied fighter, but the era of WWI dogfights were over.
Many underestimate the P-40C and F4F-4 Wildcat, both were faster at dive speed, more stable and robust, had pilot armor and better guns (the US 50cal was one of the finest weapons of all time), in fact, over the western desert in Africa, German pilots reported that P-40Cs could turn inside a BF-109F!

Once allied pilots stoped trying to dogfight, and instead went to high speed passes, Zeros started to take grevious losses.

Germany countered with the highly effective FW-190A in 1941, the USA with the P-47 Thunderbolt (another underated a/c) in early 43, in the pacific, the F4U Corsairs (introduced to combat in 43) and P-38 lightnings as well as F6F Hellcats dominated Japan till Japan in early 45 introduces the excellent Ki-84 Frank.
In Russia, the La-5, and later La-7 (both superior to the more numerous Yaks) had one air-superiority over the German aircraft.
The USA's P-51 C+D Mustangs (with british designed Merlin engine) dominated all aeras till the war's end.
German jets like the ME-262 never got more then 30 in the air at one time, and only became operational in early 45, never made a real impact, nor did Britain's Meteor fighter.

Moving into the Korean war, Russia's Mig-15 was the best a/c in 1950, totally outclassing the USA's F-80 shooting star and F9F Panther.
The USA rushed the F-86 Sabre to the area, and it was able to dominate the Migs, so badly that Migs would only engage over North korea, so that the werkage would fall behind their lines!

In the late 50s the Russians began to produce the Mig-21, a small and elegant dogfighter, the USA introduced the big and fast F4 Phanthom, both types being highly successful.

I'll let others describe the jet era, this post is long enough!

	22-03-2002 00:32									#95
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Serb, stop being an Ass.

It's alright to admire Russian equipment, but it performed poorly in every war with western equipment since the 1950s.

You only look foolish with this, and before you get angry, I interviewed several Russian pilots in 1991, they confirmed most emphactically that their Russian supplied designs were inferior.

	22-03-2002 00:34									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith Serb, I just want to say welcome to the Off Topic Forum. It's nice for us poor stereotyped Americans to have someone disgustingly nationlistic from another country around.

Well you are a little late, I was there for a wile already.

quote: I just had to comment because I found your above comments so amusing. I mean, if we went unilateral we'd get so much political crap thrown at us we'd have to get more shovels. As things stand, we're still being accused of being unilateralist. If you're taking coalition building as a sign of weakness, well, let's just say I've learned a lot about you in this thread.

It is not a sign of weakness. I suppose you gain a couple of lessons after Vietnam.

	22-03-2002 00:43									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Serb, stop being an Ass. It's alright to admire Russian equipment, but it performed poorly in every war with western equipment since the 1950s. You only look foolish with this, and before you get angry, I interviewed several Russian pilots in 1991, they confirmed most emphactically that their Russian supplied designs were inferior.

Why should I become angry? Actully I have a lot of fun.
Btw, where did you do interviewed Russian pilots, in Russia or in USA? I just can’t imagine a Russian pilot who can say so. May be they were an immigrants who was in lack of money and told you a lot of bullsh!t stories you wanted to hear.
Well, anyway it’s night here. I must go to sleep. May be tomorrow if I’ll be lucky I’ll come here with real Russian pilot who knows more about fighters then I am.

	22-03-2002 00:46									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Serb The American wargames? Wargames are really brilliant source of knowledge. Tell me, is it because of those games you seriously believe that Alexander was Romulan, Ottoman or something? Now I see how you study history in America- playing wargames which evaluate Migs as bad planes, and seeing Hollywood movies that claims that Americans saved everyone’s asses.

Hey dude-fish!! The ROMulan thing is a joke and a little bit too subtle for you. Talk to Paiktis. He will explain to his little orthodox brother (you).

Actual wargames are indeed a great source of knowledge. For instance, Admiral Nimitz said that all aspects of the WWII pacific campaign (including Pearl Harbor attack) had been wargamed except for 1. Abomb. 2. Kamikazis

By wargamers, I'm referrring to Civ2 and Axis and Allies players.

	22-03-2002 00:50									#99
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Hey, relax. What if my post was a joke too?

	22-03-2002 00:56									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Why should I become angry? Actully I have a lot of fun. Btw, where did you do interviewed Russian pilots, in Russia or in USA? I just can’t imagine a Russian pilot who can say so. May be they were an immigrants who was in lack of money and told you a lot of bullsh!t stories you wanted to hear. Well, anyway it’s night here. I must go to sleep. May be tomorrow if I’ll be lucky I’ll come here with real Russian pilot who knows more about fighters then I am.

Active duty frontal aviation pilots at Polynarov air station, near Murmansk.

	22-03-2002 01:11									#101
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How much you've paid them for interview? And I'm curious, in 1991 was it already allowed for active duty frontal aviation pilots to gave interviews? Are you sure was not tricked by cadets?
That's all I'm going to bed.

	22-03-2002 01:28									#102
	Got spare money?

Your rapidly moving to my stupid son of a b1tch catigory.
How old are you, 7 or 8?

Since you like fun and games, Russian equipment is still first class junk, and only a loser would support it.

Sleep tight.

	22-03-2002 03:43									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Well I have heard the dive speed described by Australian pilots of the time as the "only" advantage the P40 had in dog fights with zero's. It was used in desperation. The zero outperformed the P40 in virtually every other way.

*must dig myself out of the hole*

There were two kinds of P-40's: those with superchargers, and those without them.
The ones without the superchargers (ie the ones flown generally flown by the RAAF) were Zero bait. The ones with the superchargers could generally get out of trouble.

Basically, my point is that because the Zero struggled to deal with contemory American aircraft, it can hardly be called 'dominant'. It was a good plane, but nothing all that special.

	22-03-2002 03:46									#104
	Got spare money?

For it's time, the P-51 Mustang.

	22-03-2002 04:02									#105
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hre I pulled this link up about the performance of the mighty, Ruskie trained Iraqi airforce.

Rar.....

http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airch...apj/hurley.html

quote: The IQAF's tactics generally seemed confused, and its pilots displayed poor situational awareness by frequently allowing coalition fighters to close to within a few miles before taking defensive action.48 Iraqi MiG-29 pilots in particular "appeared not to know how to fly,"49 as demonstrated by an early engagement in which a MiG-29 pilot shot down his wingman and then flew his own aircraft into the ground some 30 seconds later. Iraqi MiG-29 pilots reportedly flew with the air-intercept radar button taped down to lock onto the first aircraft detected and continually depressed the trigger to fire their weapons as soon as they acquired a target.50 Apparently, all Iraqi fighter pilots practiced these techniques, for when they managed to lock onto coalition aircraft, they launched their missiles at extreme ranges and missed every time.51 Attempts to engage coalition aircraft, however unsuccessful, were unusual; once in the

And let me say. I knew about this incident years ago.....

	22-03-2002 04:04									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Serb It is not a sign of weakness. I suppose you gain a couple of lessons after Vietnam.

I guess you didn't know the Aussies were in Vietnam, and the South Koreans sent 200,000 soldiers. Not to mention the Thai's and south vietmese. Sounds like a coalition to me!

	22-03-2002 08:30									#107
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by faded glory hre I pulled this link up about the performance of the mighty, Ruskie trained Iraqi airforce.

WTF? Did you read this article?
Where in this article a single word about superiority of coalition planes?
The main point of this article is that Iraq's pilots were poorly trained because of Saddam.
Few quotes from YOUR article-
The IQAF's fourth-rate performance suggests that it was unable, unwilling, or not allowed to fight. The reality is a hybrid of all three hypotheses, and each can be traced to the same root cause: Saddam's concerns about security and associated military policies.

quote: For Saddam Hussein and the IQAF, two lessons of the Gulf war should stand out above all others. First, war is the province of professional soldiers. The Vietnam War, Saddam believed, taught that Americans would never again tolerate a prolonged or costly conflict. He ignored a lesson that American commanders had learned all too well: the chief executive's office is a poor place from which to plan and direct a battle. Thus, while President George Bush vowed that American forces would never again be committed to battle "with one hand tied behind their back,"86 President Saddam sent his forces into the fray virtually bound, gagged, deaf, dumb, and blind. Second, just having an air force isn't enough. On paper, the IQAF looked formidable indeed--both in terms of personnel and modern equipment. That qualitative and quantitative advantage might have been sufficient to prevent an Iranian victory in the 1980s, but against the coalition air forces the IQAF could offer little more than token resistance. A painfully obvious lesson of twentieth-century warfare, proven time and again, is that modern weapons are a waste of resources without operators who are willing and able to use them. Saddam serenely defied the lessons of history, and Iraq paid the price for his ignorance. Therefore, if the Gulf war was truly won in the air, the outcome was decided long before the first shot was fired, for Saddam Hussein did more damage to the Iraqi air force than did 2,000 coalition sorties a day.

	22-03-2002 08:35									#108
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Your rapidly moving to my stupid son of a b1tch catigory. How old are you, 7 or 8? Since you like fun and games, Russian equipment is still first class junk, and only a loser would support it. Sleep tight.

Thanks for kind words. No, I'm alittle older then you think.
But, you don't answer my question. As far as I know by our laws contacts of military personel with foreign reporters are restricted. Who were those people you interviewed?
And as you see I'm already awaken. Want another round?

	22-03-2002 08:41									#109
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Everybody needs to chill... the next personal insult is sending somebody to Mingapulco

	22-03-2002 08:57									#110
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Ming,
Enlighten me about this mysterious Mingapulco please. Where is it? You give tickets there for free? Am I the candidate for trip in Mingapulco?

	22-03-2002 08:59									#111
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WWI:

Fokker DVII - German

SPAD - Allied

WW II:

BF 109 series - Axis

P51 Mustang - Allied

	22-03-2002 09:08									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Ming, Enlighten me about this mysterious Mingapulco please. Where is it? You give tickets there for free? Am I the candidate for trip in Mingapulco?

The next time you make a personal insult against somebody, you will find out

	22-03-2002 09:09									#113
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serb


You gonna respond to my response to your "Coalitions-learned something from vietnam comment"?

Yes, I know that sentence made no sense. I'm tired.

	22-03-2002 09:11									#114
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Everybody may continue the list of planes, but the proper answer on question-“ The Most Dominating Aircraft Ever?” is NONE. There was no absolutely dominating aircraft, never was.

	22-03-2002 09:19									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The next time you make a personal insult against somebody, you will find out

As for me, I think I'm losing on personal insults account on this thread to Chris62. Serb, stop being an Ass..... Your rapidly moving to my stupid son of a b1tch catigory. But nothing is lost. I’m worked on it, perhaps I’ll respond to him in the same way later. Is Mingapulco a cool place?

	22-03-2002 09:28									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Serb As for me, I think I'm losing on personal insults account on this thread to Chris62. Serb, stop being an Ass..... Your rapidly moving to my stupid son of a b1tch catigory. But nothing is lost. I’m worked on it, perhaps I’ll respond to him in the same way later. Is Mingapulco a cool place?

No. Go to Acapulco. Much nicer.

	22-03-2002 09:34									#117
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I wonder if the Mingapulo threat works on Siberians. It's like telling somebody in San Quentin he shouldn't do that or else they'll take him to the county jail.

But as for most dominating, I kind of agree with Jack, the Zeppelin is a good call. It's more psychological than anything else though. Although psychological intimidation would include any modern NATO design.

	22-03-2002 09:34									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar serb You gonna respond to my response to your "Coalitions-learned something from vietnam comment"? Yes, I know that sentence made no sense. I'm tired.

I know that you were not alone in Vietnam.
When I said that you gained a couple of lessons I’ve mean that now before you engage in war with somebody, you’ll prepare your public opinion that this war is unavoidable and that you gonna do a right thing and that everybody support you in your actions. This is how it was in Yugoslavia when your media started a huge propaganda campaign vs. Serbs. This is what happen now when you gonna go to Iraq.
Btw, you didn’t answer my question when you saw the show about full automatic landing. But this is unimportant it is not necessary to answer this question.

	22-03-2002 09:41									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar No. Go to Acapulco. Much nicer.

Did you was in both Acapulco and Mingapulco? What the difference between them? I’ve just never heard about Mingapulco, enlighten Siberian uninformed guy about this mysterious place please. I don’t think I’m gonna like this place, I don’t know why, but I have bad feelings about it.

	22-03-2002 09:44									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I’ve just never heard about Mingapulco, enlighten Siberian uninformed guy about this mysterious place please.

Mingapulco is just like Serbia was under Stalin. Its a gulag.