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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
As for me, I think I'm losing on personal insults account on this thread to Chris62. Serb, stop being an Ass..... Your rapidly moving to my stupid son of a b1tch catigory. But nothing is lost. I’m worked on it, perhaps I’ll respond to him in the same way later. Is Mingapulco a cool place? |
Try calling me a liar again and see how really nasty I can be.
Your still a bumb-assed newbie here, so i cut you some slack, slack is now gone.
Because YOU never heard of it doesn't make things not happen.
We can fill volumes of books on things YOU don't know about.
I tried to treat you like anyone else, but you insulted me, then my intelligence, as if i wouldn't know the difference between an officer and a cadet.
You are a child, arguing with men, if you wish to be treated as an adult, then act like one.
Untill then, you will be treated like the petulant child you have been acting like.
Understand?
Many of the people here have much experience with the world, something you obviously lack.
Sorry to inform you sunshine, but your sources are the wrong ones, and you have been lied to and fooled.
When you start understanding that and doing something about it, then will you discover maturity, which you obviously lack.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris 62
About the Zero:
When first encountered, it was unstopable, because of poor allied tactics, not through superior design.
The Model 21 Zero-sen lacked self-sealing fuel tanks, pilot armor, and many had radios removed to increase range (a major tactical error), slow firing 20mm cannons and rifle caliber Mgs.
It could out turn and outclimb any allied fighter, but the era of WWI dogfights were over.
Many underestimate the P-40C and F4F-4 Wildcat, both were faster at dive speed, more stable and robust, had pilot armor and better guns (the US 50cal was one of the finest weapons of all time), in fact, over the western desert in Africa, German pilots reported that P-40Cs could turn inside a BF-109F!
Once allied pilots stoped trying to dogfight, and instead went to high speed passes, Zeros started to take grevious losses.
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Geting back to aircraft discussion, I can't believe people are dissing the Zero.
First off, when the allies came up against the Zero, they had nothing that could compete with it. The Zero was faster, more agile and could out climb the Wildcat and the early P-40s.
Allied pilots were initially caught off guard and then had to develop tactics to balance the field, but even then the Zero held an advantage.
A couple of posters have mentioned that the American planes could dive faster. That's true, but that advantage only really applies when escaping. Even then, once the American pilot has escaped, he wouldn't had a chance to regain height on the Zero.
The inability to take on a Zero single-handed, led the Americans to adopt team tactics. The Americans also used hit-and-run tactics, particularly after getting faster aircraft. (And Chris62: while the American tactic was to avoid dogfights, this doesn't mean these air battles did not happen.)
The dominance of the Zero can be seen in the simple fact that Allied pilots had to change their tactics to fight against it. They couldn't take on the zero one-on-one so they developed team tactics. They would avoid fights by diving away. Their only chance was to have superior height at the start of a fight, or to turn head-on and hope that their superior firepower would take down the Zero before they were shot.
The Zero didn't have the same firepower, but it was still deadly, particularly in the hands of a skilled pilot.
At the end of 43, the Wildcat appears and the tide is turned against the Zero, but for two years it was clearly the best fighter in the Pacific and it dominated the skies.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Try calling me a liar again and see how really nasty I can be. |
I’m so scared. 
Just tell me. When I call you a liar? I’ve never done so. I’ve just wanted to figure out something about people whom you interviewed. And you, btw, still don’t answer me in which circumstances you interviewed them. I was wonder, because in 1991 SU still existed and by laws it was restricted for Soviet pilots to gave interviews for American reporters, it counts as betrayal. I wonder if by modern laws in our military it is allowed for fighter’s pilots to give interview about Russian planes to foreign reporters. I’m sure that such things restricted in many modern armies. It calls security measures. That’s what I’ve talked about. So, if you want to convince me in something you should tell HOW you gain those interviews.
quote:
Because YOU never heard of it doesn't make things not happen. |
Of course, this is correct but this is may be applied to you as well.
quote:
We can fill volumes of books on things YOU don't know about. |
The same I can do also. It is impossible to know everything.
quote:
I tried to treat you like anyone else, but you insulted me, then my intelligence, as if i wouldn't know the difference between an officer and a cadet. |
 Let’s see, you’ve started it with words- Serb, stop being an Ass. Again, I didn’t insult you, I’ve just wanted to find out more about people you interviewed and I was chill during our debate. It is you who constantly insulted me with different rude words.
quote:
You are a child, arguing with men, if you wish to be treated as an adult, then act like one.
Untill then, you will be treated like the petulant child you have been acting like. |
Well, if you are 40 year old, as I think, then yes you may call me a child I’m 15 years younger then you are. If you are 40 you have right for this if no, then how old are you then? Btw, I don’t really care how you treat me.
Sir, Yes, Sir!!!
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Sorry to inform you sunshine, but your sources are the wrong ones, and you have been lied to and fooled. |
Of course, only your sources are true, the others are lie.
quote:
When you start understanding that and doing something about it, then will you discover maturity, which you obviously lack. |
You think that you acted like an adult? I’ve heard only personal insults from you and nothing more, you acting like child more than I.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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Keep digging your head in a sand, SU have the most powerfull Air Forces at end of WW2.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Felch X
I can't believe you're still talking about it.
For a plane to be considered dominant, it would help if the country that used it did not suffer a total and utterly humiliating defeat. The Zero was a really good plane, but really good plane does not mean dominant. It was never able to soundly destroy allied air forces in large numbers, and by the end of the war, was being cut down from the skies in battles like the Marianas Turkey-shoot.
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Sure, by the end of the war, the newer American planes had an advantage, but a bigger factor was the lack of skilled Japanese pilots. The Japanese never spend a lot of effort rescuing their downed pilots and as a result, by the end of the war there were very few decent pilots.
As for winning or losing the war, the Japanese were bound to lose eventually due to the massive size of the American economy. Add in the successful USN submarine victory, the lucky US victory at Midway that wiped out a big chunk of the IJN carrier force and no matter how good the Zero was, it would not have won the war single-handedly.
As for kill-loss ratios, that's a difficult measure to use given that the Japanese lacked skilled pilots and were willing to send up guys who did not have the training to survive regardless of the plane they were flying.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Next he'll be telling us the Soviet Union had the best strategic bombers  |
Of course, we’ve bombed Berlin in 1941.
In august 1941 when Nazi was on their way to Moscow, the wing of Soviet heavy bombers took off from airbase on Eizel island near Talin and made a successful bombing raid on Berlin. Planes flight about 1000 Km, made a successful bombing and every plane returned. It was shock for whole world. Bombing raids continued until middle of September. The only analog of such unique operation is Soviet bombing raids on Formoza made in 30s against Japanese. Or may by you gonna say that you have such operations? What was the operation range of your bombers?
Some air combats:
The quality of Japanese pilots: the Soviets rated it high. Boris Smirnov (one of Soviet aces of Spanish Civil War) said: "Japanese were more experienced than Italians and more aggressive than Germans". That's enought, isn't it?
The strike to Shanghai: on 2nd December 1937, Soviets bombers destroyed Japanese cruiser and damaged 6 another military ships.
The defence of Wuhan: on 29th April 1938, Soviet fighters shot down 21 Japanese planes, and on 31st May - 15 planes.
The strike to Formosa:
the very risky, but very succefull mission of Soviet Volunteer Group. Captain Fyodor Polynin was the commander of bomber group. Formosa made a formidable target. The distance from Hankou (a suburb of Wuhan nowadays) to Formosa is more than 1000kms, so the target was barely within the range of a twin-engined SB-2 bomber. The Japanese airfield was ringed by mountains and hard to approach. It would probably be defended by fighters and would surely be protected by flaks. On 23rd February 1938, 28 SB bombers flew at 13500-16500 feet to extend the range of the SB. The crews suffered from anoxia in the course of the long flight, since there were no oxygen masks available, but there was no alternative. The bombers passed the island to the north, turn south, and came down to 12000 feet with engines muffled to delude the Japanese. The bomber group then hit the target and ran for the coast. On the way across the strait, the bombers were at 6000 feet, and the crews were able to catch their breath a little before climbing to 12000 feet. There were no escort figthers, but the SB was a speedy plane; contemporary Japanese fighters were not able to catch it. But over the target even was no any air danger; moreover the Japanese had made no attempt at camouflage or dispersal. They seemed sure of their safety. Japanese AA artillery began to fire near the end, but too late. Much lighter SB bombers had already turned and headed for the Taiwan Strait, running flat out for the Chinese coast. In all, the Soviet planes dropped 2080 bombs. The raid was a shock for the Japanese. The air base at Taibei was out of action for a month. According to Chinese intelligence, about 40 planes were completely destroyed on the airfield, and a number of unassembled planes were also destroyed in their shipping containers. The hangars and a three-year store of fuel had burned. The Japanese government recalled the governor of Formosa, and the base commander was court-martialed and subsequently committed a suicide.
Mikado's birthday: 29th April 1939 Japanese sent 72 bombers to Khankow. There weren't any escort fighters and the Soviet pilots shot down 21 bombers.
3rd October 1939 capt. Kulishenko G.A. lead the strike to Hankow airbase. The Japanes lost 64 planes; 130 men were killed and 300 wounded.
Do you have bombers able to flight on distances about 1000Km? I suppose no. Enlighten me if I'm wrong.
Last edited by Serb on 22-03-2002 at 15:11
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Case
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The backlash starts here
Feb 2000
time: 15:18
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quote:
[QUOTE] [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Next he'll be telling us the Soviet Union had the best strategic bombers |
quote:
Originally posted by Serb
Do you have bombers able to flight on distances about 1000Km? I suppose no. Enlighten me if I'm wrong. |
Good prediction Horse.
Serb, the Allies had heaps of fighters and bombers that could fly 1000 km. The B-17, B-24, B-25, B-26, B-29, Mustang, Lancaster, Mosquito to name just a few.
In fact, the Soviets first true strategic bomber, the Tu-4 Bull, which appeared well after WW2 was a direct copy of the B-29 Superfortress.
Also, I'd hardly compare the handful of Soviet raids of 1941 with the later 1000+ aircraft British and American raids on Berlin which were common from 1943 onwards
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22-03-2002 09:45
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