26-03-2002 03:44									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo It'd be far easier to deport everyone who doesn't speak English, wouldn't it? Maybe criminalize speaking any non-English languages.

I really do wish you would stop trying to put words in my mouth as I don't think that I've advocated anything of the sort.

quote: Secondly, as the study you sent to me pointed out, there are large economic enclaves where speaking Spanish is not only perfectly adequate, but necessary.

Yes, they also have the negative effect retarding a person's assimilation into his new homeland. However I fail to see how this relates to my point about English fluency and sucess in the US labor market.

quote: So does a common religion.

And that has to do with what I've been posting in what way exactly? If we want to throw absurdities around you could have mentioned that charismatic dictators can unify a country as well, ex. Tito.

KH: I thought you were a free-marketer?

Yes, that's part of the reason why I don't feel the need to give special governmental treatment to those that willfully choose to disable themselves by not at least becoming functionally literate in the langauge of the majority.

	26-03-2002 03:53									#212
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quote: I really do wish you would stop trying to put words in my mouth as I don't think that I've advocated anything of the sort.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm asking you why you're suggesting such a convuluted policy when clearer policies can do precisely the same thing.

quote: Yes, they also have the negative effect retarding a person's assimilation into his new homeland. However I fail to see how this relates to my point about English fluency and sucess in the US labor market.

Again, in local labor markets in many places in the US, speaking only Spanish can still lead to relative success.

quote: And that has to do with what I've been posting in what way exactly?

You suggested that bonds that unify a nation should be fostered with public policy. Why not religion as well?

	26-03-2002 04:17									#213
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quote: Yes, that's part of the reason why I don't feel the need to give special governmental treatment to those that willfully choose to disable themselves by not at least becoming functionally literate in the langauge of the majority

Ah, but wouldn't the invisible hand guide them to bilingualism if it's actually necessary or desirable? The private sector, as Ramo has already pointed out, provides many examples of linguistic niches in the US in which, frankly, English is optional. Why should the government force those living in these niches to learn English? By doing so, the government interferes in the marketplace. If supermarkets in the barrios provide bilingual customer assistance then why shouldn't the government do the same? By not doing so, they artificially increase the value of knowledge of English.

	26-03-2002 04:28									#214
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse By not doing so, they artificially increase the value of knowledge of English.

Because we already "artificially' increase the value of learning English for other monolingual immigrants, which appears to be supported by Ramo. If we subscribe that governmental services should be handed out on an equitable basis, by what objective standard do we give such deferential treatment to Spanish speakers and not to those that speak any of the other 329 languages spoken in the US.

	26-03-2002 04:38									#215
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Because Spanish-speakers account for such a large minority, Enclaves of the sort described are viable. Urdlu enclaves are not. The private sector shows that English and Spanish are far more valuable languages to provide services in than any others.

	26-03-2002 04:42									#216
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Because Spanish-speakers account for such a large minority,

That may well be but people who list themselves as not being able to speak English as either "not well" or "not at all" account for less than 5% of the population. That hardly accounts for a signifigant minority.

	26-03-2002 04:43									#217
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Again, significant enough for many businesses to provide services in Spanish, many of them nationally.

	26-03-2002 04:51									#218
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Again, significant enough for many businesses to provide services in Spanish, many of them nationally.

I don't believe that I have challenged the right of businesses to provide the services they choose, especially if they can turn a profit at it.

However, I don't see the need for the government to become bilingual especially in the absence of a large anglophobe population such as what is in Quebec.

	26-03-2002 04:58									#219
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I don't believe that I have challenged the right of businesses to provide the services they choose, especially if they can turn a profit at it

My point is that the marketplace has obviously decided that providing services in Spanish is desirable, i.e. comes in positive on a cost/benefit scale. By refusing to provide services in Spanish you are imposing the will of the majority on the minority through government, not simply saving money.

	26-03-2002 05:04									#220
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse By refusing to provide services in Spanish you are imposing the will of the majority on the minority through government, not simply saving money.

This arguement is starting to go around in circles. By what right does a Spanish-only speaker deserve to get government services and a Urdlu or a Mandarin Chinese speaker do not.

Edit: For reference, I'm not discussing the market at all in this instance.

	26-03-2002 05:09									#221
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Dino, the government needs to provide services that are economical. It can't do everything, just what's reasonable.

If there is a sufficient Mandarin minority to justify the expense of providing services in it, then go ahead.

	26-03-2002 07:14									#222
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Resulta curioso comprobar como un idioma tan insignificante como el español provoca tanto MIEDO en los americanos

	26-03-2002 07:17									#223
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If I remember my Spanish correctly, that translates something like: "It's odd that a language as insignificant as Spanish provokes such consternation among the Americans".

	26-03-2002 23:38									#224
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse If I remember my Spanish correctly, that translates something like: "It's odd that a language as insignificant as Spanish provokes such consternation among the Americans".

yes, an excellente translation

	27-03-2002 05:41									#225
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As for the businesses deciding for themselves what languages to support, I had recently a funny experience with AT&T. I called to their customer service and found them speaking Russian to me. I guess my call was automatically redirected to attend me in my native language.

Los gringos aun se resisten a lo inevitable. Viva la lengua espanola en los EEUU

Sinceramente,
El Vagabundo