25-03-2002 21:46									#181
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You seem to be using a strawman argument -- claiming that we are arguing in favor of something that we never did support.

Actually I was asking him, not putting words in his mouth.

	25-03-2002 21:47									#182
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"Surely if you want to have a people that is united they must have a common language."

LOL welcome to Canada...there are many bilingual and trilingual countries (Swiss)

	25-03-2002 21:49									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Actually I was asking him, not putting words in his mouth.

oh -- ok

	25-03-2002 21:52									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "Surely if you want to have a people that is united they must have a common language." LOL welcome to Canada...there are many bilingual and trilingual countries (Swiss)

Yes, but the swiss can all understand each other which means they have a common language even if they are bilingual and trilingual.

I dont know about Canada, but I hear there is a large amount of people in the Quebec area who want to be separate from Canada. This makes me think they mostly speak french only, not french and english. See how disunited they are?

	25-03-2002 21:57									#185
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"See how disunited they are?"

Not really...the 'large number' has been 'wanting to seperate' for a long time (like, 150 years), and nowadays it's only a small fraction of the Francophone population.

The US becoming bilingual would have almost no impact on anything, except making it easier on Spanish speakers.

	25-03-2002 22:09									#186
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I've never understood the desire to make the US bilingual, etc. If an immigrant (legal or otherwise) is going to be living in a country for any signifigant period of time, they should learn the language of the majority living in that country.

	25-03-2002 22:14									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker "See how disunited they are?" Not really...the 'large number' has been 'wanting to seperate' for a long time (like, 150 years), and nowadays it's only a small fraction of the Francophone population. The US becoming bilingual would have almost no impact on anything, except making it easier on Spanish speakers.

It depends what you mean by "bilingual". Do you mean everyone speaking spanish and english or do you mean english only speakers learning to speak spanish?

	25-03-2002 23:19									#188
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Here bilingualism means that all government signs and services are in both languages, as well as certain other things, for example on airplanes the message is always said in English, and then again in French for non-English speakers.

Also, all students must take compulsory French through Public School and then through High School.

	25-03-2002 23:40									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Here bilingualism means that all government signs and services are in both languages, as well as certain other things, for example on airplanes the message is always said in English, and then again in French for non-English speakers.

Sounds like a terrible waste of government money to me. Can you imagine how much that all costs? A lot of money would be saved by requiring everyone to speak the same language. If you want to be bilingual, fine, but learn the common language first.

	26-03-2002 00:56									#190
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quote: Sounds like a terrible waste of government money to me. Can you imagine how much that all costs? A lot of money would be saved by requiring everyone to speak the same language. If you want to be bilingual, fine, but learn the common language first.

Having any governemnt signs and forms sounds like a terrible waste of money to me. Can you imagine how much all that costs? A lot of money would be saved by taking down all government signs and forms. If you like signs and forms, fine, but don't expect the gov't to create them.

quote: I've never understood the desire to make the US bilingual, etc.

Not being *******s to our Spanish residents.

	26-03-2002 01:03									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Having any governemnt signs and forms sounds like a terrible waste of money to me. Can you imagine how much all that costs? A lot of money would be saved by taking down all government signs and forms. If you like signs and forms, fine, but don't expect the gov't to create them.

	26-03-2002 01:03									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Not being *******s to our Spanish residents.

If an immigrant (legal or otherwise) is going to be living in a country for any signifigant period of time, they should learn the language of the majority living in that country.

It basically boils down to common courtesy. If I'm ever going to be living in a country for a signifigant period of time, I have no right to expect that the government of the country to make allowances to me in order to accomodate me for willfully disabling myself by not learning the language spoken by the people of the country. You even appear to accept this by excluding the Chinese, etc. in your calls to institute multi-lingual systems.

	26-03-2002 01:06									#193
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Would you move to France and expect everyone to learn english for you?

	26-03-2002 01:20									#194
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quote: It basically boils down to common courtesy.

That's exactly what it boils down to. By not making minor changes in our gov't to accomadate the very sizable Spanish-only speaking portion of our population, we're being total jackasses.

quote: If I'm ever going to be living in a country for a signifigant period of time, I have no right to expect that the government of the country to make allowances to me in order to accomodate me for willfully disabling myself by not learning the language spoken by the people of the country.

I think people should be able to expect that a gov't is occasionally marginally reasonable.

quote: You even appear to accept this by excluding the Chinese, etc. in your calls to institute multi-lingual systems.

There isn't an all that significant number of Mandarin-only speaking residents in this country. The same is not true for Spanish-only speakers.

I'm not saying there should be a certain number of official languages in every country. All I ask is for a little pragmatism.

quote: Would you move to France and expect everyone to learn english for you?

That's hardly a fair comparison. The number of English-only speakers in France isn't significant.

	26-03-2002 01:35									#195
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo By not making minor changes in our gov't to accomadate the very sizable Spanish-only speaking portion of our population, we're being total jackasses.

I still haven't heard any reason why the willfully disabled deserve special treatment simply because we have allowed the problem to get past some sort of arbitrary cut off point.

quote: There isn't an all that significant number of Mandarin-only speaking residents in this country. The same is not true for Spanish-only speakers.

Since when is courtesy constrained by such petty things as numbers?

Edit: Why are we jacking this particular thread?

	26-03-2002 01:47									#196
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quote: Since when is courtesy constrained by such petty things as numbers?

Courtesy is constrained by pragmatism, not "numbers."

quote: I still haven't heard any reason why the willfully disabled deserve special treatment simply because we have allowed the problem to get past some sort of arbitrary cut off point.

Why do you support an English-only system? Isn't it because the number of English-only speakers in the country have made it past some arbitrary cut off point? Would you still support an English only system if Spanish becomes the dominant language in the US?

quote: Why are we jacking this particular thread?

It wasn't my fault.

	26-03-2002 01:48									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Sounds like a terrible waste of government money to me. Can you imagine how much that all costs? A lot of money would be saved by requiring everyone to speak the same language. If you want to be bilingual, fine, but learn the common language first.

Yeah, right on. Those leetle brown spanish-speeking peeples don' pay no taxes, man.

There is a pragmatic reason for bi- or multi-lingual government services, as well as commercial services. The consumers thereof are paying for it. The question of what languages to provide should really be market-based. If there are enough speakers of a different primary language such that they contribute enough to justify the cost of the additional language service (actually pretty minor), then what's the problem? In the private sector, it's called good customer service, or simply smart business. Why is it an ideological issue in the public sector?

Dino - this thread is hereby open for jacking by my official proclamation. Since it was a troll thread in the first place, and the troll in question is stuck under his bridge for another five days, any "legitimate" use of this thread would be a distinct improvement.

	26-03-2002 02:05									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That's hardly a fair comparison. The number of English-only speakers in France isn't significant.

And why is that I wonder? Perhaps its because the english-speakers who moved to France learned french before they moved!

	26-03-2002 02:11									#199
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yeah, right on. Those leetle brown spanish-speeking peeples don' pay no taxes, man.

Cheap shot.

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat There is a pragmatic reason for bi- or multi-lingual government services, as well as commercial services. The consumers thereof are paying for it. The question of what languages to provide should really be market-based. If there are enough speakers of a different primary language such that they contribute enough to justify the cost of the additional language service (actually pretty minor), then what's the problem? In the private sector, it's called good customer service, or simply smart business. Why is it an ideological issue in the public sector?

Any country and its leadership have an interest in promoting a common language to prevent the fragmentation of the population into isolated groups. Lack of a common language breeds resentment and causes misunderstanding.

Are you suggesting the public sector should be run like a business? If so then lets get rid of welfare, it costs money.

	26-03-2002 02:18									#200
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The US conquered much of the South-West from Mexico. Why didn't the Americans who settled in California learn Spanish before they moved?

quote: Perhaps its because the english-speakers who moved to France learned french before they moved!

Hispanics don't need to learn English in some places. There are huge Spanish-speaking economic enclaves in this country where they can get by perfectly well without you telling them how to live their lives.

	26-03-2002 02:26									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Hispanics don't need to learn English in some places. There are huge Spanish-speaking economic enclaves in this country where they can get by perfectly well without you telling them how to live their lives.

That is the problem, you now have communities within the same country that are so isolated from the rest that they dont even speak the same language. How are people of different races supposed to co-operate if they dont even speak the same language?

	26-03-2002 02:36									#202
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Maybe you should learn Spanish if you want to cooperate with Spanish-only speakers so badly. Maybe you should get off your arse and start teaching Spanish-only speakers English if this matters so much to you. Why don't you support legislation forcing English speakers to learn Spanish, if you truly feel this way?

You don't want to make the effort to communicate with them, so who the hell are you to force Spanish-only speakers to learn how to communicate with you?

	26-03-2002 02:43									#203
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In spite of some tension and conflict that come with diversity, I truly believe that through diversity, comes unity by overcoming tension and conflict and appreciating the differences among people.

For me, this includes langauge -- I do not believe that it is necessary for United States to declare English as the official language.

	26-03-2002 02:43									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Maybe you should learn Spanish if you want to cooperate with Spanish-only speakers so badly. Maybe you should get off your arse and start teaching Spanish-only speakers English if this matters so much to you. Why don't you support legislation forcing English speakers to learn Spanish, if you truly feel this way?

What a ridiculous attitude! By far the majority of people in the US speak english, dont you think its a little easier for everyone to learn that language than spanish? There would be far less people to teach that way.

quote: Originally posted by Ramo You don't want to make the effort to communicate with them, so who the hell are you to force Spanish-only speakers to learn how to communicate with you?

So even though they moved to an english-speaking country they should expect everyone else to learn their language? How retarded.

	26-03-2002 02:46									#205
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun In spite of some tension and conflict that come with diversity, I truly believe that through diversity, comes unity by overcoming tension and conflict and appreciating the differences among people. For me, this includes langauge -- I do not believe that it is necessary for United States to declare English as the official language.

As I have said many times before - when it comes to language there are only two choices - Diversity or Unity.

Why is it so difficult for you people to grasp this simple concept?

	26-03-2002 02:58									#206
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Why is it an ideological issue in the public sector?

A common language unifies a nation which I think can be considered a good thing.

quote: Dino - this thread is hereby open for jacking by my official proclamation.

I guess it's OK now.

Ramo: Why do you support an English-only system?

English fluency is an important factor in person's success in the labor market. I'd like to see immigrants not be held back by thier own ignorance.

	26-03-2002 02:59									#207
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quote: What a ridiculous attitude! By far the majority of people in the US speak english, dont you think its a little easier for everyone to learn that language than spanish? There would be far less people to teach that way.

Maybe you should be deported back to New Zealand for the lack of adequate English comprehension skills.

My point was that you aren't making a voluntary effort to learn their language, so who the hell are you to force them to learn yours?

quote: So even though they moved to an english-speaking country they should expect everyone else to learn their language?

Actually, most Hispanics probably don't expect everyone else to learn Spanish. For the most part, they would like to be left alone by statist, intolerant people such as yourself.

quote: How retarded.

Yep, that characterizes your posts quite well.

	26-03-2002 03:06									#208
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Over 200 posts for this one.

Way to troll Wiglaf!

	26-03-2002 03:08									#209
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quote: English fluency is an important factor in person's success in the labor market. I'd like to see immigrants not be held back by thier own ignorance.

First of all, that's a tangeantial point to bilingual government signs and services. And it's a backassward way to insure everyone knows English. It'd be far easier to deport everyone who doesn't speak English, wouldn't it? Maybe criminalize speaking any non-English languages.

Secondly, as the study you sent to me pointed out, there are large economic enclaves where speaking Spanish is not only perfectly adequate, but necessary.

[quote]A common language unifies a nationquote]

So does a common religion.

	26-03-2002 03:09									#210
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quote: English fluency is an important factor in person's success in the labor market. I'd like to see immigrants not be held back by thier own ignorance

I thought you were a free-marketer?