24-03-2002 03:03									#1
	La Charte de la Langue Français Increase Your PM Length

For those who are interested, a backgrounder in Quebec's Language Law history. Some of you might be interested in comparing this to the current discussion regarding language in the US. The two main players on the Quebec political scene since ~1970 have been the Liberals (anti-seperatist) and the Parti Québecois (seperatist), who will henceforth be referred to as the PQ.

1974: The Liberal government passes Bill 22, making French the official language of the province of Quebec. This bill also restricts access to English public schools to children who had at least one parent educated in English in Canada. This last requirement is a deliberate stab at immigrants to Quebec, who aresupposedly eroding the nature of Quebec society by choosing to educate their children in English in large numbers.

1976: For the first time, the PQ is elected into power. Part of their platform is the pledge to hold a provincial referendum on the issue of Quebec sovereignty.

1977: Bill 101, also known as "La Charte de la Langue Français" (Charter of the French Language) is passed by the PQ. This law declares French to be the only language allowed on commercial signs in Quebec. It also specifically bans the use of English.

1980: The first referendum on Quebec sovereignty is held. The "no" side wins by a clear margin ~60%-40%.

1982: The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is agreed to by all provinces except Quebec. Prime Minister Trudeau signs it into effect, as does the visiting Queen, Elizabeth II. For the first time, Canada has a Constitution. Due to the fact that Quebec did not agree to it, governments here have always maintained that it is illegitimate.

1988: The Supreme Court of Canada declares Bill 101 unconstitutional. It also decides that requiring the predominance of French on commercial signs would be constitutional. The Liberal government of Quebec passes Bill 78, which allows bilingual signs inside commercial establishments, but retains the French-only requirement for outdoor signs. Knowing that this bill is also unonstitutional, the government invokes the notwithstanding clause of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, making it impossible to contest its unconstitutionality.

1990: The Meech Lake talks to draft a new Canadian Constitution fall through.

1992: The Charlottetown accord, a proposed new Canadian Constitution, is signed by the governments of all provinces and territories. When it goes to a nation-wide referendum it is rejected by the populations of 6 provinces and 1 territory: Nova Scotia, Quebec, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia and the Yukon. Nationwide, it receives 45% support.

1993: The United Nations Human Rights Commission declares that Quebec's sign laws contravene international treaties regarding civil and political liberties. The Liberal government of Quebec immediately passes Bill 86 allowing bilingual outdoor commercial signs so long as the French lettering is at least twice as large as the English lettering.

1995: The second referendum on Quebec sovereignty is held. The "no" side wins a bare majority, rejecting an allegedly unclear question by a less than 1% margin. There are allegations of vote tampering by PQ return officers.

1999: A Quebec court rules that the province of Quebec must prove that the French language in Quebec is in imminent danger in order to continue to impose language restrictions on commercial signs.

2000: The Quebec court ruling is overturned by a Quebec superior court. This decision is still being appealed.

2002: The PQ seem to have tabled the idea of a referendum for the next decade or so. Popular support for sovereignty has fallen since the 1995 referendum, despite the fact that the PQ has won two consecutive majority governments since then.

	24-03-2002 03:08									#2
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Out of curiosity, what would be the effects if Quebec leaves Canada?

	24-03-2002 03:12									#3
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Potentially devastating, potentially minor.

There's a good possibility that Quebec would remain part of Canada in all but name. If this were the case, then Quebec would only suffer a moderate depression as some of the more frightened businesses moved away.

	24-03-2002 03:14									#4
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The possibility of sovereignty seems to have receded, though. Most people in the province are more worried about their pocketbooks than constitutional issues, and they've learned that Quebec is historically badly-managed. I doubt they trust either provincial party with the responsibility of running a country.

	24-03-2002 03:17									#5
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse 1988: The Supreme Court of Canada declares Bill 101 unconstitutional. It also decides that requiring the predominance of French on commercial signs would be constitutional. The Liberal government of Quebec passes Bill 78, which allows bilingual signs inside commercial establishments, but retains the French-only requirement for outdoor signs. Knowing that this bill is also unonstitutional, the government invokes the notwithstanding clause of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, making it impossible to contest its unconstitutionality.

One more thing, of what use is the Canadian Constitution if it allows the provinces to ignore due process at will?

	24-03-2002 03:18									#6
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Absolutely none.

	24-03-2002 03:19									#7
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If Quebec separates I will throw a party.

	24-03-2002 03:20									#8
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It does, though, bar the federal Gov't from making unconstitutional laws, and it provides a jump provinces aren't always willing to make for fear of public backlash.

	24-03-2002 03:49									#9
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Here's an interesting, if somewhat alarmist, article I found on the secession of Quebec. From reading the article, it looks like Alberta might make a good candidate for US statehood if they ever decided to leave.

	24-03-2002 03:53									#10
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Far less likely a possibility than Quebec independence, no matter what Asher tells you.

	24-03-2002 04:19									#11
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KH is spewing nonsense.

Quebec has no reason to cede, they keep getting in power federally through proxies like Jean Chretien.

Then, surprisingly, the government sends them loads of money in transfer payments and declares tham a "distinct society."

Whereas Alberta is intentionally ignored federally, money is taken from us, and the federal government enjoys meddling with Provincial Politics here and spreading FUD and smear campaigns nationwide on bills we pass.

Both Quebec and Alberta have very low chances of leaving, but Alberta's is slightly higher. We have a very good chance of being accepted in the USA, and they much better suit the ideologies prevalent today than Canada's federal government.

Quebec whines because, superficially, they are different. Wow, they speak a different language in general. By all means, cede from the government you guys help to elect... It's hogwash. A scheme for more money.

	24-03-2002 04:22									#12
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It came within 60 000 votes last time, Glonkie. Take a poll in Alberta.

	24-03-2002 04:25									#13
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KH, you realize that Quebec voted like that to act like they were serious, yes?

Anyone with a brain can realize that Quebec would NEVER survive on its own. They can't.

Alberta is in a FAR better position for leaving. We actually have political reasons rather than superficial language/cultural reasons, we actually are being largely ignored by the consistently majority liberal government, we actually have huge reserves of money and resources that would allow us to survive independently if needed, AND I'm sure the US would have no problem at all accepting us, while they'd have major problems with Quebec.

Quebeccers don't have a clue, to be honest. They may vote for separation, realize they now get less money and nothing's changed, not to mention having to pay off a huge share of Canada's debt, then just simply rejoin. It's obvious...

	24-03-2002 04:29									#14
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Do you really think that people were able to judge within a one percent margin of error what the result would be and then voted accordingly? There was sufficient popular support to pass an article of secession.

I'm not saying it's the smart thing to do, or that Alberta wouldn't be in a better situation than Quebec if they seceded; I'm saying that popular opinion makes one a distinct posibility and the other not. It comes down to that whole cultural divide you refuse to acknowledge. Spend some time in Quebec City or Trois-Rivieres; it's like a whole other country up there.

	24-03-2002 04:34									#15
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Do you really think that people were able to judge within a one percent margin of error what the result would be and then voted accordingly? There was sufficient popular support to pass an article of secession.

Why would Quebec secede? Why?!
Because it's a different language/culture?!
How does this translate into lost political voice, or a reason to leave the Canadian political scene?
It simply makes no sense, it'll never happen.

The fact that Quebec voters almost DID vote to secede baffles the mind. Why would they do that? There's no reason to. Only the French would do something like that.

I've been in Quebec City and Montreal.
It's not that different, other than the language. It's a superficial difference.

The Quebec people are too silly to look beyond that, and see that they actually support much of what the federal government does. The province is full of whiners that don't know what they want.

Alberta knows what it wants. And there are real reasons behind wanting to ditch the Canadian federal government.

Quebec as a people may vote to secede but once they figure out how it'll actually affect them, I guarantee you they'd ask to rejoin. They don't think things through.

	24-03-2002 04:44									#16
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You keep arguing about who's more justified in seceding. I'm not, since I think both provinces should quit their *****ing.

You obviously have no idea what Quebec voters are capable of, Asher. There's a 250 year-old hatred that lives in the hearts of many of them. They feel like a conquered people, and this is why the issue remains, not because they aren't politically represented or because there are economic issues. Down deep, this is what really matters to people. Les vrais Québecois and Québecoises don't "feel" like Canadians, and this lies at the root of the problems.

	24-03-2002 04:47									#17
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You keep arguing about who's more justified in seceding. I'm not, since I think both provinces should quit their *****ing.

The difference: Quebec has no reason to whine.
Alberta's losing money to fund provinces like Quebec to whine for the sake of whining.
Alberta is IGNORED by the federal government. Not only that, but the federal government MEDDLES WITH PROVINCIAL POLITICS and starts smear campaigns about stuff we pass provincially (remember bill 11?).
Alberta has REASONS to whine. If you don't want to hear it, perhaps you could get the government you guys elect to stop taking our money and giving us the shaft whenever you can.

quote: You obviously have no idea what Quebec voters are capable of, Asher. There's a 250 year-old hatred that lives in the hearts of many of them. They feel like a conquered people, and this is why the issue remains, not because they aren't politically represented or because there are economic issues. Down deep, this is what really matters to people. Les vrais Québecois and Québecoises don't "feel" like Canadians, and this lies at the root of the problems.

I'm all for Quebec's separation.
As far as I'm concerned, they add nothing of value to the country.
They're a black hole for money and an embarassment.
I mean, really...having laws that the French portion of a sign must be >50% of the text? That's stupid. Really, really stupid.

Another pet peve of mine: Newfoundland. Why did we let NFLD into the country?! What do they add to Canada?
What they TAKE is money. 60% of their budget comes from the federal government (more specifically, other provinces. More specifically, Alberta).

	24-03-2002 04:52									#18
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quote: The difference: Quebec has no reason to whine. Alberta's losing money to fund provinces like Quebec to whine for the sake of whining. Alberta is IGNORED by the federal government. Not only that, but the federal government MEDDLES WITH PROVINCIAL POLITICS and starts smear campaigns about stuff we pass provincially (remember bill 11?). Alberta has REASONS to whine. If you don't want to hear it, perhaps you could get the government you guys elect to stop taking our money and giving us the shaft whenever you can

Bill 11 is the first step toward destroying Medicare in this country. The federal gov't could easily withdraw your health-care funding. It has all the right in the world to meddle with provincial politics, since the provinces feel no compunction about meddling with federal politics.

You live in a social democracy, Asher. The federal government has broad powers to tax and spend money where it feels like, and there is no way we'll let Alberta try to make us more like the States.

	24-03-2002 04:56									#19
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Anyhow, I really didn't feel like making this a new thread to discuss redneck politics. I know Quebec is your favourite foil, but I'd appreciate it if we kept the discussion within the scope of the original post.

	24-03-2002 04:56									#20
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Bill 11 is the first step toward destroying Medicare in this country. The federal gov't could easily withdraw your health-care funding. It has all the right in the world to meddle with provincial politics, since the provinces feel no compunction about meddling with federal politics.

So very typical.
You guys don't have a clue what Bill 11 is.
The federal government practically brainwashed everyone into thinking everyone it's the first step towards privatized healthcare.
This is what I'm talking about, KH.
Go read the actual text of Bill 11. Understand what it is, and then compare that to what Chretien told everyone it is.

Also, the federal government could NOT easily withdraw our health-care funding. Didn't that make the newspapers in Quebec? It turned out there was absolutely nothing wrong with Bill 11, and the Federal government couldn't do anything about it. The result? They funded an advertising campaign using federal money to try to kill the bill's support. Since it didn't work in Alberta, they thought it'd be fun to move it to a nationwide *****fest.

quote: You live in a social democracy, Asher. The federal government has broad powers to tax and spend money where it feels like, and there is no way we'll let Alberta try to make us more like the States.

It's easy to say that when you're on the receiving end of someone else's gratitude, isn't it?
When you're the one paying, on average, $900/year that you never see again to fund homeless people in NFLD and fund Quebec arts and cultural programs, you may see a problem with it too.

	24-03-2002 05:02									#21
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Too bad. Why don't we start *****ing about how poor people get more from the government than they have to give? Maybe we should only have a poll tax?

You live in a country where 130 years of history dictates that the wealthy owe something to the less wealthy. Transfer payments are just one way the federal gov't redistributes the wealth.

Oh, and by the way, why don't you find out what the costs and benefits were to Alberta 50 or 60 years ago? Until the 70s Alberta was poorer per capita than the Central and Eastern provinces, and sucked off their teat. Now they've grown up to be spoiled brats who think they're getting screwed by having to contribute.

	24-03-2002 05:07									#22
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Too bad. Why don't we start *****ing about how poor people get more from the government than they have to give? Maybe we should only have a poll tax?

Because it's entirely different. If regions are consistently and completely unreasonable to live in (Like Newfoundland), the government should pay for these people to relocate to areas where they can get jobs and contribute to the company. They should NOT give them free handouts and support the 20-25% unemployment rate.

Likewise, they should NOT use money from Alberta to fund Quebec arts programs.

quote: You live in a country where 130 years of history dictates that the wealthy owe something to the less wealthy. Transfer payments are just one way the federal gov't redistributes the wealth.

Now do you see why Alberta's not happy with that?
We don't believe in many of the basic premises of Canada in general. Why are we here?!

quote: Oh, and by the way, why don't you find out what the costs and benefits were to Alberta 50 or 60 years ago? Until the 70s Alberta was poorer per capita than the Central and Eastern provinces, and sucked off their teat. Now they've grown up to be spoiled brats who think they're getting screwed by having to contribute.

And we STILL voted conservatives into power and we STILL were against the principle.
Doesn't that tell you something?

	24-03-2002 05:11									#23
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The answer's simple: live with it.

By the way, do you know what two provinces have the fewest seats per capita in Parliament?

	24-03-2002 05:12									#24
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Nope.
But I don't see how it's relevant to anything, considering those provinces are most likely electing members to the majority government.

	24-03-2002 05:15									#25
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The answer's simple: live with it.

And people wonder why Alberta's angry and protests the Federal policies.

It's like me repeatedly stepping on your toes because you can't do anything about it, then telling you to "live with it".

	24-03-2002 05:15									#26
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What's your point? You complain about Alberta not being politically represented, when in fact the average citizen in Quebec and Ontario has far less individual power.

We should amalgamate all the Western provinces. That way you'd get to feel important, and your transfer payments would be cut.

Why don't you complain about federal subsidies to farmers and price controls on agro-products, by the way? Alberta wins out on those.

	24-03-2002 05:17									#27
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse What's your point? You complain about Alberta not being politically represented, when in fact the average citizen in Quebec and Ontario have far less individual power.

1) Define "far less"
2) Why does this matter, considering they elect >50% of the entire government, which means they elect a majority government anyway?

quote: We should amalgamate all the Western provinces. That way you'd get to feel important, and your transfer payments would be cut.

Yeah, Alberta really wants to be grouped with BC and Saskatchewan. We share so many interests...

quote: Why don't you complain about federal subsidies to farmers and price controls on agro-products, by the way? Alberta wins out on those.

Watch me.
I hate those too.

	24-03-2002 05:18									#28
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Were you guys waiting for me ?

	24-03-2002 05:24									#29
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quote: 1) Define "far less" 2) Why does this matter, considering they elect >50% of the entire government, which means they elect a majority government anyway?

Asher, our current political system overvalues Albertan voters and undervalues Quebec and Ontario voters. You're just complaining that Quebec and Ontario are too big. It's a fact of life. Alberta's can't make or break governments because it's just not big enough, and thus it shouldn't have as much power.

By the way, if you hadn't noticed, Nfld. is losing people and Alberta is gaining people. Transfer payments don't stop inter-provincial migration; they just slow it down to managable levels. There's already a housing crisis in Alta, according to StatsCan.

By the way, if migration continues at the current rate, it won't be long before Alta is electing NDP governments...

	24-03-2002 05:29									#30
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Asher, our current political system overvalues Albertan voters and undervalues Quebec and Ontario voters. You're just complaining that Quebec and Ontario are too big. It's a fact of life. Alberta's can't make or break governments because it's just not big enough, and thus it shouldn't have as much power.

I want numbers, KH.
I want numbers of seats per province, and population per province.

I also think that it's a major problem if Quebec and Ontario, which tend to vote for similar things, can decide the federal governemtn for the entire country, and then proceed to bully provinces like Alberta which (whether you'd like to admit or not), have no say in how Federal politics work.

Something needs to be done. Surely you can see that if you look at it rationally...

quote: By the way, if you hadn't noticed, Nfld. is losing people and Alberta is gaining people. Transfer payments don't stop inter-provincial migration; they just slow it down to managable levels. There's already a housing crisis in Alta, according to StatsCan.

Housing crisis? Yeah, okay, whatever.
Prices are down since last year on housing. They were up 2% or somethign the year before. Crisis! Crisis! Red Alert! The Federal department StatsCan has decided Alberta has a crisis...

quote: By the way, if migration continues at the current rate, it won't be long before Alta is electing NDP governments...

Nonsense, the NDP and liberals actually lost seats in the recent elections, conservatives gained even more.

Just because people were NDP/liberal elsewhere doesn't mean they'll share the same views here. Particularly when they see where lots of their money is going.