29-03-2002 07:41									#271
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud As for the slaves, I do understand that by 1800 or so, most ocuntryies did not like slavery, but before that time there can be 0 argument for reparations.

So what of the period between 1800-1865, when--by your own admission--the rest of the world regarded American slaves the same way the rest of the world regarded German Jews under the Nazis? I believe you've just negated your own argument... thanks for saving me the effort.

quote: And also, how can these "descendants" prove that their ancestors worked there. There are hundreds of tiny and many large (already stated) reasons they don't deserve the money.

There are hundreds of tiny and many large reason that they do deserve the money, which I have outline.

How can they prove their ancestors worked for the corporations in question? Birth records, geneologies, genetics, what-have-you. All sorts of methods.

	29-03-2002 07:42									#272
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Excuse me Guynemer, but I find this discussion dificult to take seriously.

I see no problem in black people billing the decendants of slave owners for the work those slaves did if the slave owners can counter sue for transportation charges from Africa, victuals, and housing.

Why?

Because the decendants of slaves have something here in America that their relatives in Africa lack.

Oportunity.

Also, most of the slaves were owned by blacks before being sold to slavers. The blacks were tribal of course, and would sell POWs in the coastal slave markets, run by blacks, for money to finance their continued wars. Before slavery started these poor unfortunate POWs were commonly tortured to death. SO, instead of sueing people who weren't even alive at that time, or companies that were involved in the slave trade whose owners and stockholders weren't alive at that time, maybe the blacks ought to try to obtain money in the land of oportunity the old fashioned way, earn it. Just like the English settlers, the Poles, Jews, Germans and Irish. All these groups had a fight to begin with. Perhaps not against slavery, but at first against an undeveloped land, later against extreme poverty and racism, such as the Irish.

My mother, decended from German imigrants, suffered great hardships growing up in poor, dirty,overcrowded cities. Her people did flee europe because of religious persicution. Am I to sue the governments of europe for the religious intolerance of the 1600s?

	29-03-2002 07:43									#273
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Exactly! It's easy to make 400 posts about Civ3: pick one side ("This game sucks" or "This game doesn't") and vehemently defend your position on ever single thread that pops up on the subject (by "vehemently defend" I mean "post the same damn thing over and over again"). If nobody is challenging your position, then just switch sides and repeat steps 1 through 7. Within a week I guarantee that Guy will have his custom avatar.

Just doesn't sound like it's fun, LB. Selling my soul, on the other hand, has all sorts of deliciously evil connotations to it... THAT sounds exciting!

C'mon Ming... put in a good word for me. I'm a decent enough fellow.

	29-03-2002 07:44									#274
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I'm sorry, but can't you guys see the immorality of "reparations"?
They seek to punish the innocent living for the crimes of the dead.

Ramo -

quote: What do you mean? Jefferson didn't assert any federal prohibition against civil ex post facto laws.

Which is what I posted. Go back and read the quote from Jefferson on page five.

	29-03-2002 07:45									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Just doesn't sound like it's fun, LB. Selling my soul, on the other hand, has all sorts of deliciously evil connotations to it... THAT sounds exciting!

Oh granted, the process isn't fun, at least if you avoid getting banned it isn't. You've got to work for that custom avatar, dammit!

	29-03-2002 07:45									#276
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Lancer--

I have a hard time taking you seriously, when you obviously keep missing the point, not to mention you bring up the odious argument, "They ought to be thankful they were dragged over here in chains."

That's like saying, "The Jews ought to be thankful for the Holocaust. Without that, they never would have gotten Israel."

BULLSHIT.

For the ten billionth time, this is not about suing governments! Why do you insist on trying to make it about that?

	29-03-2002 08:31									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Elucidus What about Native Americans, shouldn't they be owed something? Afterall, this was their land that we built our country/businesses on.

Actually, if you read about the court cases up to current times, there have been many settlements put forward by various tribal governments.

Their claims are even more legitimate, due to treaties that have been repeatedly broken by state governments, federal government, and settlers themselves.

And due to the dillution of the races over such a period of time, it would be very difficult if not impossible to prove ancestry in slavery.

But could a person prove SOME link to their ancestry to slavery??

	29-03-2002 08:48									#278
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I plan on suing all of the companies I've worked for that didn't pay me enough. Obviously they built their business on my back!

	29-03-2002 09:01									#279
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quote: Which is what I posted. Go back and read the quote from Jefferson on page five.

What are you referring to in particular?

His comment about state ex post facto laws? Do you expect all of the state Constitutions in the early 19th century not to have amended the provision by now (and Jefferson didn't mention the initial status of the laws - do they refer to civil ex post facto laws as well?)? Or that every new state has the provision?

I'd appreciate a more modern source.

And why can't the trial go through federal courts?

	29-03-2002 09:13									#280
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Still, I can't even fathom sueing someone, for something someone else did before myself or my grandparents were even born. That is just ludicrous!!!

	29-03-2002 10:42									#281
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quote: Originally posted by cia I plan on suing all of the companies I've worked for that didn't pay me enough. Obviously they built their business on my back!

You're comparing that to slavery? Funny, I don't think slaves could get away with giving two weeks notice before they quit.

Sorry ass troll, compadre.

	29-03-2002 10:44									#282
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Ever tried participating in an argument that you're interested in, but others ignore you??

Well on this thread, that's the case with me.

	29-03-2002 11:09									#283
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One of the side issues here that I find ironic is that there are many people in America today who are descendants of both slaves and slaveowners.
Maybe Arthur Andersen could help us sort that out.

	29-03-2002 11:40									#284
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer BTW Orange... does this mean the honeymoon is over?

The honeymoon was over when you and Ribannah lost the Iroquois debate

	29-03-2002 18:26									#285
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And due to the dillution of the races over such a period of time, it would be very difficult if not impossible to prove ancestry in slavery. But could a person prove SOME link to their ancestry to slavery??

My point exactly. And to make it worse, records are spotty.

What if a person is a child of an ex-slave and a white? Dillution would be even more rapid. Would they qualify?

150 years is at least 6 generations. Heck I can only trace my family heritage back solid for 4 generation with some of the 5th. A lot of work was needed to take it back that far.

So even if there was some merit, proof would be very hard to come by. Imagine the feeding frenzy by fly-by-night companies that specialize in bogus family trees. Justice would not be served.

Now native americans is a different story. Some would argue that through treaties (even though quite a few have been broken) that the tax issues and gambling issues is a form of reparations. Quite a few tribes get healthy stipeds annually from gambling revenues and mineral rights. There have been quite a few horror stories of people attempting to scam proof of ancestery to claim a share of that stiped. And other stories where people had proof and were denied. Imagine what would happen if this was played out on an even greater scale.
Only the lawyers would get rich.

And the final question, Do reperations really solve anything? A lot of people feel (whether right or wrong) that the Stiped that some indian tribe's give to tribe members actually hurts them. Quite a few don't work and just drink. Now is it fair that someone can just sit around and drink because one of the ancesters was persecuted. Justice is not served.
(I know this is a broad generalization but there is some truth buried in there somewhere)


RAH
Mr. Fun, I've quoted you a couple of times in this thread, so you can't be completely being ignored.

	29-03-2002 18:27									#286
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer With all due respect (HA!), if you truly believe that "in America today, honesty and hard work will get you success," then you're the one who needs to go out in the real world and see how things work.

Actually I know how things work. My family came to the US in 1958 not speaking a word of English.

My Grandfather ran a successful shoe repair business in Chicago for 40 years and is now worth about half a million dollars.

My Grandmother went to college and became a registered nurse and worked for 20 years.

My father had a stroke in 1986 and lost all use of his right side, yet he struggled and despite his disability, is the Supervisor for the Illinois department of Public Aide and Human Services.

While supporting our family while my dad recovered from his stroke, my mom went back to college and got her MBA (Masters in Business Administration). She became the VP of Telesales for wwGranger (an Industrial Supplier).

My sister has a crippling immune disease called Lupus, she has managed to get accepted to DePaul University in Illinois where she is finishing a degree in psychology.

I am currently finishing a degree in Computer Science at DePaul University and then I plan on starting my own Software company where I will design computer games.

So yes, honesty and hard work will get you success. TALK TO ANYONE IN THE REAL WORLD WHO HAS HAD SUCCESS!!!!! MICHAEL JORDAN, BILL GATES, GEORGE W. BUSH!!! NONE OF THESE PEOPLE HAD THEIR SUCCESS HANDED TO THEM ON A SILVER PLATTER. THEY WORKED FOR IT.

And people who demand reparations for slavery are sick, twisted individuals who don't want to put forth the hard work to succeed.

	29-03-2002 18:59									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Sava GEORGE W. BUSH!!! NONE OF THESE PEOPLE HAD THEIR SUCCESS HANDED TO THEM ON A SILVER PLATTER. THEY WORKED FOR IT.

I agree with everything you have said except this. Dubya comes from a very wealthy family.

	29-03-2002 19:03									#288
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The legal case against the insurance company is crap. They did not use slave labor (which in any event was legal at the time), all they did was provide services to all sorts of people, some of whom were slave owners. I imagine that almost any company still around from that time period could be sued under such a broad sweep.

The case against CSX (the railroad) may also go immediately into the toilet if they used subcontractors to do the work that is alleged to have been done by slaves. Otherwise any business that bought American cotton before the civil war could be sued in the same manner, ie for buying a product from someone who used slaves to create that product.

All this assumes that this case stands up against a number of motions to have it discarded out of hand for a number of reasons, some of which have been mentioned here.

If the plaintiffs manage to prevail there will be a very difficult and expensive attempt to prove who owes and how much, and an even more difficult attempt to decide who gets money and how much. This would be difficult in a suit of equal complexity dealing with torts which happened recently. With the passage of 150 years and the decay of records, combined with the exponential growth of descendants through the years it is going to be a nightmare.

Amusingly the people who are going to pay in such a case are going to include some smug Europeans who are happy to see Americans beating each other up as well as a fairly sizable slice of the plaintiffs (those who own mutual funds) who will still probably net some cash. The biggest winners by far will be the lawyers. The biggest loser will probably be race relations, if a look at some of the racist spoutings on this thread is any indicator.

	29-03-2002 19:12									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I agree with everything you have said except this. Dubya comes from a very wealthy family.

You are correct. But politicians work very hard to get elected, even the rich ones who seem to have it made. Newly elected Chicago Congressman, Rahm Emanuel, is a friend of my family. I've talked to him a lot about what the life of politics is like. He was also on Clinton's staff.

During the election, politicians have to put on that nice face and parade around the country. They average about 2-4 hours of sleep a day, usually on a plane or bus when traveling somewhere.

	29-03-2002 19:25									#290
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You are correct. But politicians work very hard to get elected, even the rich ones who seem to have it made. Newly elected Chicago Congressman, Rahm Emanuel, is a friend of my family. I've talked to him a lot about what the life of politics is like. He was also on Clinton's staff. During the election, politicians have to put on that nice face and parade around the country. They average about 2-4 hours of sleep a day, usually on a plane or bus when traveling somewhere.

Still, Dubya didnt have to rise up from anywhere near the bottom. The other 2 examples you gave are better. They started life in a much lower position than Dubya.

	29-03-2002 19:31									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Still, Dubya didnt have to rise up from anywhere near the bottom. The other 2 examples you gave are better. They started life in a much lower position than Dubya.

All right... how about Bill Clinton? I kinda like the "pot smoking college student" turned president story.

	29-03-2002 19:44									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Sava All right... how about Bill Clinton? I kinda like the "pot smoking college student" turned president story.

I dont really know enough about his history to comment.

	29-03-2002 21:05									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Sava So yes, honesty and hard work will get you success. TALK TO ANYONE IN THE REAL WORLD WHO HAS HAD SUCCESS!!!!! MICHAEL JORDAN, BILL GATES, GEORGE W. BUSH!!! NONE OF THESE PEOPLE HAD THEIR SUCCESS HANDED TO THEM ON A SILVER PLATTER. THEY WORKED FOR IT. And people who demand reparations for slavery are sick, twisted individuals who don't want to put forth the hard work to succeed.

This country is full of honest, hardworking people who can barely afford to put food on the table.

I'm glad things worked out so well for your family. That, however, is far, far, FAR from a universal experience.

And your constant assertions that anyone who approves of reparations are lazy, or sick and twisted, do not reflect well on your character.

	29-03-2002 21:29									#294
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quote: Originally posted by orange The honeymoon was over when you and Ribannah lost the Iroquois debate

Goodness. Not only do you have something wrong with your eyes, you're also clearly delusional. Time for you to go see a doctor, Orange.

	30-03-2002 00:42									#295
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Guy-

The blacks deserve NOTHING.
If they deserved ANYTHING then one could argue that anyone who is adescendant of the factory workers who were exploited by the early industrialists.

There is such a thing as frivolous demands.

-
They should work for their own money.
They are not poor because they are in america and theri ancestors were 'persecuted'

they can grow through the ladder of success as many ahve done before to at least middle class.

I know many people who have done such things.

They are merely lazy and idiotic.

	30-03-2002 00:44									#296
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And you are merely hate-filled and pathetic.

	30-03-2002 02:05									#297
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Guy- The blacks deserve NOTHING. If they deserved ANYTHING then one could argue that anyone who is adescendant of the factory workers who were exploited by the early industrialists. There is such a thing as frivolous demands. - They should work for their own money. They are not poor because they are in america and theri ancestors were 'persecuted' they can grow through the ladder of success as many ahve done before to at least middle class. I know many people who have done such things. They are merely lazy and idiotic.

That is all bulls**t that you posted there.

Blacks have had a different history in the United States than poor whites or working class whites. If you have read your history, you would realize that.

Blacks were enslaved -- the closest thing for that for whites was indentured servitude during colonial times. But even indentured servitude was voluntary for the most part.

Blacks were disfranchised -- poor whites had the right to vote ever since the Jacksonian era until literacy laws were put back into place after Reconstruction for voting.

Blacks were suppressed under the Jim Crow laws after Reconstruction -- there were no suppressive codes for whites.

Blacks were segregated into inferior facilities such as schools -- poor whites suffered similiar effects but as the result of other factors, not because of segregation and maybe to a lesser extreme than that of blacks.