28-03-2002 08:50									#181
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse If they made 40 million dollars in 70 years in the early 19th century, then we have to be talking about at least 50 000 slaves.

As far as I know, (aside from FleetBoston) none of the companies are being accused of selling slaves, KH.

	28-03-2002 08:52									#182
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'm not saying they are; I'm demonstrating the value of goods in those days. Most investments make their money back in 10+ years.

	28-03-2002 08:57									#183
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm not saying they are; I'm demonstrating the value of goods in those days. Most investments make their money back in 10+ years.

So what would a "fine, muscular young male slave" go for nowadays?

What does 40$ for a slave mean to me?

It doesn't work in today's society.

Are you saying that reparations should equal $40 a head?

	28-03-2002 08:58									#184
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Depends; what are you offering?

	28-03-2002 08:59									#185
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

BTW, assuming that we are talking about 50,000 slaves, how on earth can the companies be sued on behalf of 35 million black Americans?

	28-03-2002 08:59									#186
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski So what would a "fine, muscular young male slave" go for nowadays?

There are street corners where you can get an answer to that question.

Sorry... that was in rather poor taste.

	28-03-2002 09:00									#187
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc BTW, assuming that we are talking about 50,000 slaves, how on earth can the companies be sued on behalf of 35 million black Americans?

Class-action lawsuits work that way.

	28-03-2002 09:01									#188
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm not saying they are; I'm demonstrating the value of goods in those days. Most investments make their money back in 10+ years.

Sorry, according to another source I found the 40 million dollar estimate I gave was the value of the unpaid labor preformed during that time.

	28-03-2002 09:02									#189
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Depends; what are you offering?

Sorry, would prefer a fine healthy female slave.


Okay, I am really proud of this thread by the way. It's my first.

Not counting the stupid movie thing.

	28-03-2002 09:03									#190
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Class-action lawsuits work that way.

Most of the so-called class's ancestors were never affected by the actions of the three companies.

	28-03-2002 09:03									#191
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

IIRC, that doesn't matter.

	28-03-2002 09:05									#192
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Sorry, would prefer a fine healthy female slave. Okay, I am really proud of this thread by the way. It's my first. Not counting the stupid movie thing.

I was actually going to compliment you on that; apart from a certain troll (whom I'm beginning to suspect is a Wiglaf DL (oh the irony)), this has been a great thread.

DD--$40,000,000 in 19th Century dollars, obviously, in case anyone has a brain fart. Which--according to the CNN article I was going to post just when Tuberski started this thread--is around $1.4 trillion today.

	28-03-2002 09:07									#193
	That's the way it usually works in the class action cases I know of. Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse IIRC, that doesn't matter.

Then no money should be paid out at all unless and until the plaintiffsdemonstrate that a wrong was committed against the ancestors of the entire class by the defendants.

	28-03-2002 09:07									#194
	Got spare money?

Which troll would that be?

	28-03-2002 09:08									#195
	Re: That's the way it usually works in the class action cases I know of. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then no money should be paid out at all unless and until the plaintiffsdemonstrate that a wrong was committed against the ancestors of the entire class by the defendants.

Am I reading too much into this, or are you expressing at least a measure of support for my proposal?

	28-03-2002 09:08									#196
	Re: That's the way it usually works in the class action cases I know of. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Then no money should be paid out at all unless and until the plaintiffsdemonstrate that a wrong was committed against the ancestors of the entire class by the defendants.

I don't think that's the way it works. Could be wrong. Do you have a link to the law in question?

	28-03-2002 09:09									#197
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Which troll would that be?

Sava... he only seems to appear when Wiggy is AWOL (or banned). Now we just have to figure out whose DL Wiggy is...

	28-03-2002 09:13									#198
	Re: Re: That's the way it usually works in the class action cases I know of. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Am I reading too much into this, or are you expressing at least a measure of support for my proposal?

No, I'm ideaologically opposed to the very concept of ex post facto civil trials. It just seems that if Farmer-Paellmann was going to seriously undertake this farce, she would have done it the "right" way.

	28-03-2002 09:16									#199
	Re: Re: Re: That's the way it usually works in the class action cases I know of. Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc No, I'm ideaologically opposed to the very concept of ex post facto civil trials. It just seems that if Farmer-Paellmann was going to seriously undertake this farce, she would have done it the "right" way.

Fair enough. As long as we understand each other.

	28-03-2002 09:16									#200
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't think that's the way it works. Could be wrong. Do you have a link to the law in question?

No, I only have the experience of being involved in two class action lawsuits which required the plaintiffs to fill out numerous forms to prove that they were actually a member of the class and to what extent the wrong had affected them.

	28-03-2002 09:39									#201
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm only adding this so the thread gets to 200.

	28-03-2002 10:00									#202
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: No, I'm ideaologically opposed to the very concept of ex post facto civil trials.

Why? Would you oppose Jews or Gypsies suing the crap out of Germans who stole from their families during the Third Reich?

Just because the state condones an action, that doesn't morally justify it, nor should that make the action irreversible.

	28-03-2002 10:04									#203
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why? Would you oppose Jews or Gypsies suing the crap out of Germans who stole from their families during the Third Reich?

International law and US law are two different things, Ramo.

PS I still want to know where I can see the summaries of those cases you mentioned.

	28-03-2002 10:05									#204
	Remove this text

quote: Why? Would you oppose Jews or Gypsies suing the crap out of Germans who stole from their families during the Third Reich?

Actually yes, I would - I oppose any punishment for Holocaust perpetrators at all because of the ex post facto argument.

	28-03-2002 10:11									#205
	Support Apolyton

quote: International law and US law are two different things, Ramo.

Why should domestic or international law make a difference (or for that matter, one country's domestic law and another's)? We're talking about ideology here, aren't we?

So, would you ideologically oppose German Jews or Gypsies doing such a thing in their own legal system?

quote: I still want to know where I can see the summaries of those cases you mentioned.

I don't know where to find good summaries. But you can find the actual cases decisions at: www.findlaw.com

	28-03-2002 10:12									#206
	Get a bigger avatar today!

A few comments.

The $1.4 tril, as I understand it, was apparently the value of all the unpaid labor done by slaves. The defendant corporations are clearly only responsible for part of this. And I have not seen anything yet linking the plaintiffs to the actions of the companies.

How much damages are due? The economic damages are not the total value of unpaid labor, but rather the total value of lost savings. The companies made profits by writing insurance policies and saved money by using slave labor. The slaves, had they been free, would have earned money from their labor. But if they were free they also would have had expenses. So if you are arguing that slavery restricted the ability to accumulate capital, then the loss to the plaintiffs is the value of lost savings. If $1.4 tril is the preesnt value of all slave labor, then the actual damages would be considerably less.

Mr. Fun:

quote: I cannot believe you cannot see how slavery affects today's generation of black families.

For the reasons outlined above I think you vastly overstate the effect of slavery on African Americans six generations after the fact. It is quite clear that more recent factors, such as the effect of 1960's welfare programs on family structure, had a much greater effect. Moreover it is also quite clear that many black families have experienced social mobility in the last 40 years. For example, consider the huge numbers of blacks who have moved out of cities and into suburbs. With this degree of mobility for many blacks, it would seem unlikey that problems can all be traced to someting which happened six generations ago.

Lastly, my grandparents spoke no English and lived in a company-owned coal mining town where they received below-market wages and bought food from the company store at monopoly prices. How much should I sue the company for?

	28-03-2002 10:13									#207
	Inflate your Upload Space

As much as you can get.

	28-03-2002 10:15									#208
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc International law and US law are two different things, Ramo.

What of German Jews? The German government robbed 'em blind, but it wasn't illegal for them to do it. Can they be sued to recover their belongings? (EDIT--Ramo posted this just before I did... ****er.)


DF--Wow. Speechless. However, Mr. Emerson has this to say: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

	28-03-2002 10:15									#209
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Actually yes, I would - I oppose any punishment for Holocaust perpetrators at all because of the ex post facto argument.

What argument? I consider the phrase an irrational, inconsistent buzzword like "national sovereignty."

	28-03-2002 10:22									#210
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ramo, Guy, I also believe that "following orders" is an even more valid defense, because it is unfair for us to make moral judgments in hindsight, in the case of soldiers following orders that they could get shot or imprisoned for disobeying.