28-03-2002 10:25									#211
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Ramo, Guy, I also believe that "following orders" is an even more valid defense, because it is unfair for us to make moral judgments in hindsight, in the case of soldiers following orders that they could get shot or imprisoned for disobeying.

So "following orders" is a valid reason for Jews not to receive their possessions back.

Congrats, DF. Just when I thought you couldn't possibly say something more obnoxious than "send them back to Africa," you continue to surprise me.

Never a dull moment.

	28-03-2002 10:30									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Sava... he only seems to appear when Wiggy is AWOL (or banned). Now we just have to figure out whose DL Wiggy is...

A DL on Apolyton -- that would be something new.

But I was still waiting for him to reply to my last post, which was how many posts back now!?

If we would allow for lawsuits against corporations in terms of slavery reparations, then it might be percusor to the state governments being sued for slavery -- the ones that were slave states, in spite of some people who claim that the Constitution does not allow that.

If that would occur, we would need to establish some kind of systematic, standard method in determining what African-Americans have enough substantial proof that they are entitled to a reparations check:

1) Verify that the black families today that claim they qualify for reparations to show how, generation after generation, they have remained in the poverty class, or the working class. Upper middle class and upper class blacks should be disqualified on grounds that they were exceptional in succeeding in spite of past slavery and discrimination.

2) Verify the black families applying for reparations that their ancestors were indeed, slaves. Go through the states' archives; go through any surviving plantation records that have been preserved; conduct gynealogical and genetic research for each family.

	28-03-2002 10:34									#213
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quote: So "following orders" is a valid reason for Jews not to receive their possessions back.

No, us having no moral authority to interfere with the internal affairs of Nazi Germany is why we should have no say in whether Jews receive compensation.

Following orders is a reason people like Eichmann, Speer, etc, shouldn't have been punished.

	28-03-2002 10:41									#214
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd No, us having no moral authority to interfere with the internal affairs of Nazi Germany is why we should have no say in whether Jews receive compensation. Following orders is a reason people like Eichmann, Speer, etc, shouldn't have been punished.

Congrats! Not only have you demonstrated what a yahoo you can be sometimes, you also completely missed the entire point!

The question was whether or not GERMAN Jews can have their ancestors wealth returned to them by the GERMAN government, considering that when the GERMAN government took said wealth, it was totally legal for them to do so. Ex poste facto laws would indicate that they could not sue for the return of their possessions.

	28-03-2002 11:57									#215
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DF: Was it actually legal in Nazi Germany to kill and rob Jews? Was there a law saying, for instance, that Jews had no property rights? Or that murder was not defined as killing Jews? If there wasn't, then the state's actions were illegal under their own laws and your argument collapses. Actually I'd be surprised if there were any such laws, since by the time the Holocaust got under way, the state was pretty much above the law.

	28-03-2002 19:42									#216
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I think that was intended for me, General, not DF.

Was there a written law? I wouldn't know where to begin to look. But I'm pretty sure there were actual laws regarding ghettos, confiscation, etc. etc.

	28-03-2002 19:50									#217
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Let's face it. Black people are better off in America than they would be in Africa. The entire continent is being ravaged by AIDS. 3 million people alone have died in the last 2 years in Rwanda. There isn't a country that isn't having some sort of conflict. Yet black people feel they need reparations? How about letting it go and accepting the fact that you are in the greatest country on the face of the Earth.

About those corporations... In the 20th Century they managed to build the majority of their wealth WITHOUT slavery. Succeeding in the business world is not an easy thing. Slavery had NOTHING to do with those companies successes in the 20th Century.

If you are going to give black people reparations for slavery, than you need to give the following people reparations as well:

Native Americans (the US basically commited genocide)

British reparations to the Irish (The British stole most of their land and forced millions to flee to America due to famine)

Egyptian reparations to Israel (The Pyramids were built using Hebrew slaves)

Turkish Government reparations to Serbia (At the Battle of Kosovo in the 13th Century the Turks pillaged my ancestor's land...)

Reparations to the descendents of Union soldiers who fought in the Civil War. (They died for the blacks' freedom)

The list can go on forever. I'm not fond of Bill O'Reilly (Fox News) but he said something really intellegent last night. He said every human being on the face of the Earth can trace back an injustice in one form or another. If you start giving reparations to one group for one injustice, you must give reparations to all. There would be complete anarchy and then you would end up giving more reparations to people because of the chaos that would ensue.

	28-03-2002 19:57									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The list can go on forever. I'm not fond of Bill O'Reilly (Fox News) but he said something really intellegent last night. He said every human being on the face of the Earth can trace back an injustice in one form or another. If you start giving reparations to one group for one injustice, you must give reparations to all. There would be complete anarchy and then you would end up giving more reparations to people because of the chaos that would ensue.

That's a ****ing cope out. It basically says I can screw you royally and you have no right to demand justice. The companies that benefited from the Nazi treatment of the Jews should pay a penalty. The survivors of the Rwanda massacres deserve to get some payment from the people who inflicted pain upon them.

Why don't you ****ing grow up and realize that the world is not divided into simple black and white answers. Every situation must be analysed on the basis of its own facts. Do the blacks deserve money for the crimes committed against them? I don't know, but why the **** don't you at least listen to what they say before you cast judgement. Maybe their claims have no merit, but maybe they do.

	28-03-2002 20:04									#219
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for Christ's sake people. In America there's something called the statute of limitations. It says that you can't sue unless it's within several years of a crime. Now, they could argue that they were denied access to the legal system, but this ended in the 70's, at latest. So they've had 20 years in which other cases have gone up and been shot down.

They have no case, and I applaud corpoate America for not bowing to blackmail.

	28-03-2002 20:05									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai That's a ****ing cope out. It basically says I can screw you royally and you have no right to demand justice. The companies that benefited from the Nazi treatment of the Jews should pay a penalty. The survivors of the Rwanda massacres deserve to get some payment from the people who inflicted pain upon them. Why don't you ****ing grow up and realize that the world is not divided into simple black and white answers. Every situation must be analysed on the basis of its own facts. Do the blacks deserve money for the crimes committed against them? I don't know, but why the **** don't you at least listen to what they say before you cast judgement. Maybe their claims have no merit, but maybe they do.

The problem is... the companies being sued had nothing to do with slavery. Sure, its the same company, but the people who run and work for them are not the direct descendents of the people who were responsible for the slavery.

And where do you think the money for the reparations will come from. Many honest, hard working Americans will lose their jobs as a result if these blacks get their reparations. The whole idea makes me sick. These people suing for reparations don't care or bother to think about the consequences if they win. They won't be handing out justice to the people who caused the suffering of their ancestors, they will be destroying the lives of tens of thousands of people. If they win, these companies will have to cut tens of thousands of jobs.

In a perfect world, everyone deserves reparations for injustices in the past. BUT IT SIMPLY ISN'T PRACTICLE.

Unfortunately, you and other people who support these reparations are too short sighted to see the full range of the consequences of them.

In America today, honesty and hard work will get you success. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. It doesn't matter the color of your skin, it doesn't matter your religion, and it doesn't matter what part of the world your ancestors are from.

The gift of freedom and the chance to lead a productive successful life should be reparations enough for these people.

	28-03-2002 20:17									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Sava In America today, honesty and hard work will get you success. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. It doesn't matter the color of your skin, it doesn't matter your religion, and it doesn't matter what part of the world your ancestors are from. The gift of freedom and the chance to lead a productive successful life should be reparations enough for these people.

Oh bull ****ing ****. Look at what happened with the Oscars. Denzel Washington and Halle Berry are two of the most outstanding actors/actresses in Hollywood today. Their work in, repectively, Training Day and Monster Ball's were highly acclaimed. They win the Oscars, and what happens? People start saying they only won cause they're black and the Academy wanted to give Oscars to black people this year.

That's the type of **** that black people have to put up with. Even when they do outstanding work, people minimalize their efforts by saying they just won cause of their skin colour.

When the black kid does well in school, the idiots say the kid got high marks cause the teacher didn't want to be seen as racist.

When the woman advances up through the corporate ranks, the idiots say she slept her way to the top.

When the black athlete is a superstar, the idiots say oh black people are naturally more athletic.

All of these idiotic comments insult the work done by the person who succeeds. The black kid who does well in school succeeds because they work hard. The women who succeeds in the business world does so because she works hard. The black athlete who succeeds does so because he or she works their butts off.

But that individual's hard work is dismissed by the idiotic racists.

	28-03-2002 20:22									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Oh bull ****ing ****. Look at what happened with the Oscars. Denzel Washington and Halle Berry are two of the most outstanding actors/actresses in Hollywood today. Their work in, repectively, Training Day and Monster Ball's were highly acclaimed. They win the Oscars, and what happens? People start saying they only won cause they're black and the Academy wanted to give Oscars to black people this year. That's the type of **** that black people have to put up with. Even when they do outstanding work, people minimalize their efforts by saying they just won cause of their skin colour. When the black kid does well in school, the idiots say the kid got high marks cause the teacher didn't want to be seen as racist. When the woman advances up through the corporate ranks, the idiots say she slept her way to the top. When the black athlete is a superstar, the idiots say oh black people are naturally more athletic. All of these idiotic comments insult the work done by the person who succeeds. The black kid who does well in school succeeds because they work hard. The women who succeeds in the business world does so because she works hard. The black athlete who succeeds does so because he or she works their butts off. But that individual's hard work is dismissed by the idiotic racists.

Dude, you seriously need to stop watching so much TV if the things you watch get you this upset. Here's a suggestion. GO OUT IN THE REAL WORLD AND SEE HOW THINGS WORK.

Tingkai... you are the perfect example of why parents should not rely on TV as a babysitter.

	28-03-2002 20:24									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Oh bull ****ing ****. Look at what happened with the Oscars. Denzel Washington and Halle Berry are two of the most outstanding actors/actresses in Hollywood today.

I like Denzel... but Halle Berry sucks. Did you see Swordfish?

	28-03-2002 20:26									#224
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For the love of holy blue ****, will you please stop trying to compare this to things like "Jews getting reparations from Egyptians" and other idiotic ****? Some things aren't slippery slopes. Moreover, this isn't about suing a nation or a nebulous entity like "Egyptians."

This is about suing corporations that profited from slave labor. Corporations that STILL EXIST TODAY, corporations that never paid for that labor. Stop trying to pretend that you don't understand the difference.

	28-03-2002 20:27									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Dude, you seriously need to stop watching so much TV if the things you watch get you this upset. Here's a suggestion. GO OUT IN THE REAL WORLD AND SEE HOW THINGS WORK. Tingkai... you are the perfect example of why parents should not rely on TV as a babysitter.

Ya right. Like you're going to tell me about the reall world.

What the **** are you saying, anyways. Do you think that Washington and Berry didn't deserve to win the Oscar.


This is the stuff that really ****ing annoys me. People who make useless comments that says nothing. Learn to ****ing communicate.

	28-03-2002 20:27									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Dude, you seriously need to stop watching so much TV if the things you watch get you this upset. Here's a suggestion. GO OUT IN THE REAL WORLD AND SEE HOW THINGS WORK.

With all due respect (HA!), if you truly believe that "in America today, honesty and hard work will get you success," then you're the one who needs to go out in the real world and see how things work.

	28-03-2002 20:29									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer For the love of holy blue ****, will you please stop trying to compare this to things like "Jews getting reparations from Egyptians" and other idiotic ****? Some things aren't slippery slopes. Moreover, this isn't about suing a nation or a nebulous entity like "Egyptians." This is about suing corporations that profited from slave labor. Corporations that STILL EXIST TODAY, corporations that never paid for that labor. Stop trying to pretend that you don't understand the difference.

Those corporations' success in the 20th Century had nothing to do with slave labor pre-Civil War. Go learn about running a business and corporate management, and then you can graduate into the "I know what I am talking about" crowd.

	28-03-2002 20:31									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Those corporations' success in the 20th Century had nothing to do with slave labor pre-Civil War. Go learn about running a business and corporate management, and then you can graduate into the "I know what I am talking about" crowd.

It has nothing to do with these corporations' 20th Century success, Sparky. It has everything to do with their 19th Century success. Or haven't you been paying attention?

	28-03-2002 20:44									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer This is about suing corporations that profited from slave labor. Corporations that STILL EXIST TODAY, corporations that never paid for that labor.

Guy, since they are suing for lost wages, the statute of limiations on that type of suit should have run out long ago even if we accept the legality of suing over an act that was commonplace over 100 years ago.

	28-03-2002 22:47									#230
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Guy, since they are suing for lost wages, the statute of limiations on that type of suit should have run out long ago even if we accept the legality of suing over an act that was commonplace over 100 years ago.

That might be true--I honestly wouldn't know. I was just trying to make it clear what this was and was NOT about. If there is a statute of limitations on this sort of thing, well, they might be up ****'s creek. Perhaps they're hoping for the PR hit to convince them to make the sort of concessions Orange mentioned oh-so-long ago.

BTW Orange... does this mean the honeymoon is over?

	28-03-2002 22:51									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Perhaps they're hoping for the PR hit to convince them to make the sort of concessions Orange mentioned oh-so-long ago.

Perhaps, something along these lines:

http://www.aetna.com/business_issue...ncepolicies.htm

Scroll down until you see the words, Diversity Initiatives, and start reading.

	28-03-2002 22:57									#232
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Perhaps, something along these lines: http://www.aetna.com/business_issue...ncepolicies.htm Scroll down until you see the words, Diversity Initiatives, and start reading.

I'm glad they're doing those things; any sane person would. Nothing but applause for those programs. But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that they do more, considering how gigantic that corporation is--and how they profited off the lost wages of slaves. And regardless, it doesn't specifically address the lost wages, if there is some sort of loophole in the statute of limitations (if there is one for this sort of thing). (And, again, my line of argument basically only applies to my "ideal" lawsuit, which doesn't appear of have a snowball's chance in hell of ever becoming a reality.)

	28-03-2002 23:21									#233
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Guynemer:

quote: But I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that they do more, considering how gigantic that corporation is--and how they profited off the lost wages of slaves

Lets be clear about this....Aetna does not owe anybody back wages. All they did was make a profit on a few insurance policies, probably a tiny portion of their total business, and at least one step removed from the slaves themselves. While I can understand that you are arguing about an "ideal lawsuit", the indefensibly large dollar amount and apparent lack of connection between plaintiffs and defendants makes this look more like a shake down or a PR stunt to me.

	28-03-2002 23:25									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Guynemer: Lets be clear about this....Aetna does not owe anybody back wages.

True dat. However, they did directly profit from those slaves in question. A gray area, certainly. Not quite the same thing as the slaves who built the railroads for the companies that became CSX. (EDIT: had a vocabulary brainfart.)

	29-03-2002 00:19									#235
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I loved the way everyone (lo Tingkai) ignored the really important part of this post. Guess it's a question you feel uncomfortable answering...

quote: Originally posted by Sava The problem is... the companies being sued had nothing to do with slavery. Sure, its the same company, but the people who run and work for them are not the direct descendents of the people who were responsible for the slavery. And where do you think the money for the reparations will come from. Many honest, hard working Americans will lose their jobs as a result if these blacks get their reparations. The whole idea makes me sick. These people suing for reparations don't care or bother to think about the consequences if they win. They won't be handing out justice to the people who caused the suffering of their ancestors, they will be destroying the lives of tens of thousands of people. If they win, these companies will have to cut tens of thousands of jobs. In a perfect world, everyone deserves reparations for injustices in the past. BUT IT SIMPLY ISN'T PRACTICLE. Unfortunately, you and other people who support these reparations are too short sighted to see the full range of the consequences of them.

Sava

	29-03-2002 00:27									#236
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Tingkai wont be posting for a couple of days, he got banned for being an immature communist shithead.

	29-03-2002 00:32									#237
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney I loved the way everyone (lo Tingkai) ignored the really important part of this post. Guess it's a question you feel uncomfortable answering... Sava

Actually that was covered quite some time ago by KrazyHorse, if you'd care to look back. Basically--tough for those investors and whatnot. Free market system, they should've known better. None of that is any excuse for not giving the descendants of slaves what they are owed.

	29-03-2002 01:28									#238
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Stop ignoring my posts!!

	29-03-2002 01:31									#239
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Did someone say something?

	29-03-2002 02:01									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Actually that was covered quite some time ago by KrazyHorse, if you'd care to look back. Basically--tough for those investors and whatnot. Free market system, they should've known better. None of that is any excuse for not giving the descendants of slaves what they are owed.

So let me get this straight. You don't see a problem with this $1.4 trillion dollars being taken from companies run by people who had nothing to do with the slave trade, thereby screwing the employees and shareholders who also have no connection what so ever to slavery. And being given to people who weren't slaves, or aren't even children of slaves (and in most cases we're talking 4 or more generations, not to mention the fact that many blacks in the US aren't even descended from slaves) for something which happened 150 years ago, that seems pretty ****ed up to me.