29-03-2002 02:07									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Did someone say something?

you meanie



Go back and read my last post on how I propose we could set up standard methods on proving who should be eligible for slavery reparations.

Loinburger would not want me to quote myself again.

	29-03-2002 02:44									#242
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney So let me get this straight. You don't see a problem with this $1.4 trillion dollars being taken from companies run by people who had nothing to do with the slave trade, thereby screwing the employees and shareholders who also have no connection what so ever to slavery. And being given to people who weren't slaves, or aren't even children of slaves (and in most cases we're talking 4 or more generations, not to mention the fact that many blacks in the US aren't even descended from slaves) for something which happened 150 years ago, that seems pretty ****ed up to me.

I think I've been pretty clear that I do not think that the lawsuit, as is, is ideal, or even close to it. But no, I have no problem with the basic premise.

	29-03-2002 02:46									#243
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun you meanie Go back and read my last post on how I propose we could set up standard methods on proving who should be eligible for slavery reparations. Loinburger would not want me to quote myself again.

Sorry, ive had enough of this discussion.

	29-03-2002 03:05									#244
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I think I've been pretty clear that I do not think that the lawsuit, as is, is ideal, or even close to it. But no, I have no problem with the basic premise.

So you think it is ok to screw innocent people today for the sake of a 150 year old injustice. I'm sorry but I am having a real problem getting my head round that.

	29-03-2002 03:43									#245
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun A DL on Apolyton -- that would be something new. But I was still waiting for him to reply to my last post, which was how many posts back now!? If we would allow for lawsuits against corporations in terms of slavery reparations, then it might be percusor to the state governments being sued for slavery -- the ones that were slave states, in spite of some people who claim that the Constitution does not allow that. If that would occur, we would need to establish some kind of systematic, standard method in determining what African-Americans have enough substantial proof that they are entitled to a reparations check: 1) Verify that the black families today that claim they qualify for reparations to show how, generation after generation, they have remained in the poverty class, or the working class. Upper middle class and upper class blacks should be disqualified on grounds that they were exceptional in succeeding in spite of past slavery and discrimination. 2) Verify the black families applying for reparations that their ancestors were indeed, slaves. Go through the states' archives; go through any surviving plantation records that have been preserved; conduct gynealogical and genetic research for each family.

That may be a very good idea....BUT..... The burden of proof is on the people suing not the corporations being sued or anybody else.

I don't disagree with reparations per se, just the way this was done, PROVE that you are disadvantaged because of slavery. We can argue about it all we want, but arguements no matter how convincing( Gunymeyer ) are not proof.

	29-03-2002 03:51									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Tingkai wont be posting for a couple of days, he got banned for being an immature communist shithead.

Was he the one who started the "I hate white people" poll?

	29-03-2002 03:53									#247
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Was he the one who started the "I hate white people" poll?

Thats the one.

	29-03-2002 04:07									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski That may be a very good idea....BUT..... The burden of proof is on the people suing not the corporations being sued or anybody else. I don't disagree with reparations per se, just the way this was done, PROVE that you are disadvantaged because of slavery. We can argue about it all we want, but arguements no matter how convincing( Gunymeyer ) are not proof.

Thanks for not ignoring my arguments.

So do you agree with all or some of the methods that I mentioned on how we could obtain proof of who would qualify?

Or do you disagree with all of the ones I mentioned??

	29-03-2002 04:10									#249
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Thanks for not ignoring my arguments. So do you agree with all or some of the methods that I mentioned on how we could obtain proof of who would qualify? Or do you disagree with all of the ones I mentioned??

I agree with them I think, but it should be on the part of the Plantiffs to prove this, not the courts, not the defendants, and not the government.

If they can prove it.....sure, then of course you have to figure out a fair amount, which,I believe, will never be agreed to by anybody.

I just got on, so I wasn't ignoring you.

	29-03-2002 04:12									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Thats the one.

Might as well have called it "I hate being able to post and get my point across"

Whatever his point was.

	29-03-2002 04:23									#251
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When you say, trace back and see who's ancestors were slaves,
What percentate of ancestors would you consider to be valid.
100%
50%
I'm sure most people today would be unable to show direct lineage of more than 5%. Would that qualify?

I'm not trying to be picky, but standards would have to be set, and this issue would play an important role in your solution.


Personally I think penalizing companys today for doing things that were considered legal over a hundred years ago is absurd.
A lot of INOCENT hard working people would be damaged.

AND by the end of 20 years when all the appeals were finally settled, the only winners would be the lawyers. I see no justice in that.

	29-03-2002 04:28									#252
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If we are talking about 'the sins of the father',

Not only did I not own slaves, my dad was Swiss, my mother's family were poor yankees and they never owned slaves.

...but wtf, send me a bill.

	29-03-2002 04:31									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Not only did I not own slaves, my dad was Swiss,

You owe the jews then you nazi banker!!

	29-03-2002 04:36									#254
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Caligastia, you're right!

The umm, check is ahh, in the mail, yeah, that's it.

	29-03-2002 05:24									#256
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer If we are talking about 'the sins of the father', Not only did I not own slaves, my dad was Swiss, my mother's family were poor yankees and they never owned slaves. ...but wtf, send me a bill.

Goodness, it never fails to impress me how people can completely miss the basic point of a conversation.

	29-03-2002 05:28									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski That may be a very good idea....BUT..... The burden of proof is on the people suing not the corporations being sued or anybody else. I don't disagree with reparations per se, just the way this was done, PROVE that you are disadvantaged because of slavery. We can argue about it all we want, but arguements no matter how convincing( Gunymeyer ) are not proof.

I'm glad you approve. But the basis for the lawsuit shouldn't be that they were disadvantaged because of slavery. Frankly, that should be irrelevant. The relevant fact is that they are owed the wealth that was taken and/or withheld from their ancestors.

Rah--I addressed your first points several times, re: how much money depending on how many ancestors, etc.

And, for the record, Tingkai did not post a "I hate white people" poll. He posted "I'm getting tired of all the whining white fascists," or something of that sort. Pretty big difference there; don't go making it something it's not.

	29-03-2002 05:34									#258
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quote: Originally posted by rah When you say, trace back and see who's ancestors were slaves, What percentate of ancestors would you consider to be valid. 100% 50% I'm sure most people today would be unable to show direct lineage of more than 5%. Would that qualify? I'm not trying to be picky, but standards would have to be set, and this issue would play an important role in your solution. Personally I think penalizing companys today for doing things that were considered legal over a hundred years ago is absurd. A lot of INOCENT hard working people would be damaged. AND by the end of 20 years when all the appeals were finally settled, the only winners would be the lawyers. I see no justice in that.

They would have to prove two things through a civil court case:

1) That at least half of their ancestry was in slavery for a set number of years or generations.

2) That for all the generations who lived after emancipation, they have shown that they have not been able to move out of poverty or the working class as a result of lack of opportunity.

	29-03-2002 05:41									#259
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun 2) That for all the generations who lived after emancipation, they have shown that they have not been able to move out of poverty or the working class as a result of lack of opportunity.

Wouldn't this be damn near impossible to prove? (which is a good thing I guess, heh)

What about those descendents of slaves who couldn't move out of the 'working class' because they were lazy/stupid.

	29-03-2002 06:49									#260
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What about Native Americans, shouldn't they be owed something? Afterall, this was their land that we built our country/businesses on.

I honestly think it is rediculous to sue a company who has a bit of slavery in its roots. I mean the company survived and in fact prospered, for over a hundred years without slaves.

Were any of these companies bought out by other companies, because if that is the case, wouldn't that negate the whole thing?

Yes, slavery was wrong, very wrong. Hell racism is very wrong, but if I were sued because my great-great-...grand father owned slaves and made some money off of it I would be very mad.

This is my take and no research was done on this. Essentially, it is okay to screw the guy today to repay debts to people from long long ago? So in a hundred years can this guys descendents sue the other guy for taking his fortune? The people controlling the companies today had no idea that slavery was involved (or at least I would imagine). There lives will be torn away, life's work, life savings, because of something they had no idea about, and absolutely no control over. That is rediculous.

Can't they just say that their payment was the cost of the boat ride over here? Yes that was a joke, but seriously, wouldn't they be a lot worse off in an african nation today, if these people were even alive, that is.

Sorry, I just can't imagine ever going after someone for something that happened to my descendants. My father yeah, but my great-great...grand father, no. Why not spend all of these energies building up your own wealth instead of trying to take others'?

Sorry if this seems harsh, but it hits a nerve for me. My father was passed up for promotion twice because he wasn't a women. He out scored the female on the test (the only requirement for the promotion), both times. The first time three men outscored the women, but since he was a white male he was passed up. That I see as rediculous also, maybe a little off topic, but then again isn't that reparations to the women for being a...well...women.

	29-03-2002 07:08									#261
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun They would have to prove two things through a civil court case: 1) That at least half of their ancestry was in slavery for a set number of years or generations.

I'm willing to bet that there isn't a single person alive that can prove that half of their ancestry was slaves. Think how fast it would get deluted. A slave moves north and marries a non-slave, all it would take is one more non-slave and they don't qualify.
Think about it.

Which is why it would be hard to set a fair threshhold.

RAH

	29-03-2002 07:12									#262
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Well, it seems this thread is starting to wind down a little, it's been 3 days, and we haven't seen Ming or MtG. Thank you for keeping it fairly civil. Except those of you who weren't.

	29-03-2002 07:21									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Well, it seems this thread is starting to wind down a little, it's been 3 days, and we haven't seen Ming or MtG. Thank you for keeping it fairly civil. Except those of you who weren't.

Actually, you have no idea how many times I almost flew off the handle. I almost did it again just now. (Not this post, don't worry.)

I agree. This was a good, healthy debate, for the most part. Too bad some people had to leave it. Thanks again for jumpstarting this, Tuberski.

	29-03-2002 07:29									#264
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Your Welcome!

To bad none of this counts toward my post count!

	29-03-2002 07:30									#265
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer How is that any different from what I have proposed?

It is very different, yo usuggested paying their descendants back... Well0 they don't deserve the mojney and "legally" neither did their ancestors. Their ancestors were considered property and thus their owners were under no obligations to pay them.

	29-03-2002 07:31									#266
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud It is very different, yo usuggested paying their descendants back... Well0 they don't deserve the mojney and "legally" neither did their ancestors. Their ancestors were considered property and thus their owners were under no obligations to pay them.

And "legally", the Jews were considered animals and unworthy of holding property, so it was confiscated.

See? Not very different at all. Very same, yes.

	29-03-2002 07:32									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Your Welcome! To bad none of this counts toward my post count!

No kiddin'. I'd sell my soul for a custom avatar. I just can't bring myself to make another 400 or so posts about Civ3.

	29-03-2002 07:36									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer No kiddin'. I'd sell my soul for a custom avatar. I just can't bring myself to make another 400 or so posts about Civ3.

Ihear that,besides all you hear is this game sucks. No it doesn't you do. No you do. BLAH BLAH BLAH

	29-03-2002 07:37									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer And "legally", the Jews were considered animals and unworthy of holding property, so it was confiscated. See? Not very different at all. Very same, yes.

Yes, but the majority of the world did not consider them as such... At least not openly.

-
As for the slaves, I do understand that by 1800 or so, most ocuntryies did not like slavery, but before that time there can be 0 argument for reparations.

And also, how can these "descendants" prove that their ancestors worked there.

There are hundreds of tiny and many large (already stated) reasons they don't deserve the money.

	29-03-2002 07:39									#270
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Ihear that,besides all you hear is this game sucks. No it doesn't you do. No you do. BLAH BLAH BLAH

Exactly! It's easy to make 400 posts about Civ3: pick one side ("This game sucks" or "This game doesn't") and vehemently defend your position on ever single thread that pops up on the subject (by "vehemently defend" I mean "post the same damn thing over and over again"). If nobody is challenging your position, then just switch sides and repeat steps 1 through 7. Within a week I guarantee that Guy will have his custom avatar.