29-03-2002 08:47									#181
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There were a few more negative things in addition to the visit with our priest.

My two of my three sisters who have their own families -- they do not want my nieces and nephews to know that I'm gay yet. It has been very difficult to understand why they're afraid to tell them, but so far, I have respected that over the last three years.

And, with one of my two brother-in-laws, I found out how homophobic he really is.

Plus, any partner of mine that I would have in the future I am sure would not be welcomed by my relatives outside the immediate family for family gatherings.

	29-03-2002 09:10									#182
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There were a few more negative things in addition to the visit with our priest. My two of my three sisters who have their own families -- they do not want my nieces and nephews to know that I'm gay yet. It has been very difficult to understand why they're afraid to tell them, but so far, I have respected that over the last three years. And, with one of my two brother-in-laws, I found out how homophobic he really is. Plus, any partner of mine that I would have in the future I am sure would not be welcomed by my relatives outside the immediate family for family gatherings.

Families tend to have relationships like that, regardless...

Atleast, mine does.

	29-03-2002 11:17									#183
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok Orange, if you want to make jack-ass of yourself, go make a t-shirt that says Straight-Pride and celebrate how white straight men had to overcome sooooo much discrimination.

That's entirely unfair. Why does someone have to overcome discrimination in order to be proud of something that he is?

	29-03-2002 11:19									#184
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I am originally from a small town of only 300 people, where just about everyone was Catholic. It was surrounded by farms and their fields. Guess what?? Even in that village, there were two lesbians there, but they felt that they had to move because it was way too uncomfortable there. I cannot blame them. What I mean with smaller towns, is that most of them probably have at least one or two gays or lesbians, or bisexuals. You exaggerated my statement about small towns.

Ok now make up your mind is it one or 2 or is it 5%?? I didn't exaggerate anything. Bisexuals are not considered gay by the way since gay means to have a same sex partner and not be just sexually experimenting.
The point here is that rural areas seldom have gay folks because they migrate to the city where being gay is much more tolerated. This in turn changes the % of the big city, but makes the % non-existant in the rural area. Madison is a prime example with a larger than normal gay population. At one point it had the 4th highest per capita gay population in the US, but none of those people were born in Madison. They migrated as many have to San Fransisco, Houston and Amsterdam.

	29-03-2002 11:34									#185
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quote: Originally posted by vlad Ok now make up your mind is it one or 2 or is it 5%?? I didn't exaggerate anything. Bisexuals are not considered gay by the way since gay means to have a same sex partner and not be just sexually experimenting. The point here is that rural areas seldom have gay folks because they migrate to the city where being gay is much more tolerated. This in turn changes the % of the big city, but makes the % non-existant in the rural area. Madison is a prime example with a larger than normal gay population. At one point it had the 4th highest per capita gay population in the US, but none of those people were born in Madison. They migrated as many have to San Fransisco, Houston and Amsterdam.

I never said that bisexuals and gays were of the same sexual orientation. There are three sexual orientations:

heterosexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals

But I definitely agree with you -- most homosexuals or bisexuals prefer to leave the small towns they were raised in.

And Orange, go ahead -- make a Straight-Pride t-shirt and walk in public places. I'm sure all the people who are ignorant of sexual orientation issues will applaud for your coming out. You must be a closeted heterosexual.

	29-03-2002 11:45									#186
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I never said that bisexuals and gays were of the same sexual orientation. There are three sexual orientations: heterosexuals, homosexuals, and bisexuals

Asexuality is a real thing, as well, as a matter of fact.

quote: And Orange, go ahead -- make a Straight-Pride t-shirt and walk in public places. I'm sure all the people who are ignorant of sexual orientation issues will applaud for your coming out. You must be a closeted heterosexual.

What the **** is your problem? I never said that I want to make a straight-pride T-shirt. What I'm saying is, it's unfair for people to view one type of pride as just that, pride, and another type of pride as racism.

We are in a new age where all people are equally represented and have equal opportunity BY LAW. Fighting for black rights or gay rights is a good thing when they are not being represented equally. For example - homosexuals should be fighting for their right to join the military and not get kicked out if it's found out that they're homosexual. However, holding "Gay Games" implies that the games are only for Gay people, and that is NOT NECESSARY as homosexuals are allowed to compete in the normal Olympics. Same with student unions. There is NO reason for it at all!

	29-03-2002 11:50									#187
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quote: Originally posted by orange Asexuality is a real thing, as well, as a matter of fact. What the **** is your problem? I never said that I want to make a straight-pride T-shirt. What I'm saying is, it's unfair for people to view one type of pride as just that, pride, and another type of pride as racism. We are in a new age where all people are equally represented and have equal opportunity BY LAW. Fighting for black rights or gay rights is a good thing when they are not being represented equally. For example - homosexuals should be fighting for their right to join the military and not get kicked out if it's found out that they're homosexual. However, holding "Gay Games" implies that the games are only for Gay people, and that is NOT NECESSARY as homosexuals are allowed to compete in the normal Olympics. Same with student unions. There is NO reason for it at all!

First off, you do not have to use vulgar, profane language to show off your intelligence.

Secondly, my mind is made up on this issue, and your mind is made up on this issue.

I do not understand the need for a separate Gay Olympics, but I do support gay-oriented organizations in the communities that welcome straight allies. At least you and I can PARTIALLY agree on this issue.

Since you still do not understand how the history of minority groups justifies their affirmation of their identity, I think we have run into a brick wall in this discussion.

And when you look at the history of minority groups, you will realize why white, heterosexual men have no need to affirm their identity in the same way that minority groups do.

	29-03-2002 12:15									#188
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quote: Originally posted by orange What the **** is your problem? I never said that I want to make a straight-pride T-shirt. What I'm saying is, it's unfair for people to view one type of pride as just that, pride, and another type of pride as racism. We are in a new age where all people are equally represented and have equal opportunity BY LAW. Fighting for black rights or gay rights is a good thing when they are not being represented equally. For example - homosexuals should be fighting for their right to join the military and not get kicked out if it's found out that they're homosexual. However, holding "Gay Games" implies that the games are only for Gay people, and that is NOT NECESSARY as homosexuals are allowed to compete in the normal Olympics. Same with student unions. There is NO reason for it at all!

The "pride" movements are aimed at redressing the balances and giving a boost to minorities. When it's a dominant majority that asserts the "pride" then it can't help but come across as a declaration of superiority and an attempt to maintain imbalance. That's particular true of "white pride"- I don't think it's possible to rid it of the stench of the KKK.

Do we need a "white pride" or "straight pride"? For a dominant group to come out with that just smacks of bitterness and rampant insecurity. What's more "white pride" and "straight pride" sound terribly dull- lots of stiff-necked and self-righteous humourless corpses jerking arhythmically to determiniedly non-groovy music. Would anyone want to be associated with that?

Come on- let's have someone try asserting the heterosexual white males are now the oppressed underclass. I could do with a laugh.

	29-03-2002 12:48									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny The "pride" movements are aimed at redressing the balances and giving a boost to minorities. When it's a dominant majority that asserts the "pride" then it can't help but come across as a declaration of superiority and an attempt to maintain imbalance. That's particular true of "white pride"- I don't think it's possible to rid it of the stench of the KKK. Do we need a "white pride" or "straight pride"? For a dominant group to come out with that just smacks of bitterness and rampant insecurity. What's more "white pride" and "straight pride" sound terribly dull- lots of stiff-necked and self-righteous humourless corpses jerking arhythmically to determiniedly non-groovy music. Would anyone want to be associated with that? Come on- let's have someone try asserting the heterosexual white males are now the oppressed underclass. I could do with a laugh.

Bugs, did you read my response to the same quote you responded to??

Thanks for your input, Bugs.

	29-03-2002 13:33									#190
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye The idea was to create a forum where gay people could get together to compete, show off their athletic prowess, and enjoy some solidarity while publically shooting down an old sterotype.

So you are saying that they don't think they can succeed equally with other athletes, hence they need a special event?

quote: Originally posted by mindseye Maybe if you tried living as a minority in a straight-drenched world you could understand the joyous sensation of release and freedom that accompanies the rare opportunity of being in a large crowd of people like yourself.

Is the sensationalism a bit too thick here? There are other minorities in this world as well and some of them did not ask for any special treatment at all.

	29-03-2002 13:36									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny The "pride" movements are aimed at redressing the balances and giving a boost to minorities. When it's a dominant majority that asserts the "pride" then it can't help but come across as a declaration of superiority and an attempt to maintain imbalance.

I have no objections against raising the awareness of these injustices, but I cannot agree with giving any minorities a special boost.

Again this causes resentment among people who may otherwise support the cause(s), and declare that they cannot achieve it on their on merits.

	29-03-2002 13:40									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Yeah, let's cancel the Commonwealth Games cause all it does is give Commonwealth nations special rights and that creates hatred against the Commonwealth.

By your logic then, all sports event should be cancelled because that creates a hatred towards athletes.

	29-03-2002 19:01									#193
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Hey Orange clean out your Private Message Box, it is full...

Here is my response to your message:
I can't lie to myself anymore so there will be no excuses. So this is the way I am.

	29-03-2002 19:17									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny The "pride" movements are aimed at redressing the balances and giving a boost to minorities. When it's a dominant majority that asserts the "pride" then it can't help but come across as a declaration of superiority and an attempt to maintain imbalance. That's particular true of "white pride"- I don't think it's possible to rid it of the stench of the KKK.

The "pride" movements of minorities are probably only temporary phenomenon anyway. As more of them realize that more people accept them (and as more people do accept them) the urge to assert their "pride" will decrease.

quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Do we need a "white pride" or "straight pride"? For a dominant group to come out with that just smacks of bitterness and rampant insecurity. What's more "white pride" and "straight pride" sound terribly dull- lots of stiff-necked and self-righteous humourless corpses jerking arhythmically to determiniedly non-groovy music. Would anyone want to be associated with that?

I dont have a problem with "Gay Games", but I think calling it "The Gay Olympics" would create division like Orange was saying. Good thing they changed the name.

	29-03-2002 19:26									#195
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quote: So you are saying that they don't think they can succeed equally with other athletes, hence they need a special event?

Um, no. Maybe you should try reading it again. This time pay more attention to the part about solidarity, the part about deflating stereotypes, and the part about not feeling welcome in traditional sports venues.

quote: Is the sensationalism a bit too thick here?

What I wrote is spoken from my own personal experience and that of my closest friends. If you are not part of "hidden" minority, you can have no idea how liberating and exhilarating such an experience is. I have never experienced anything else quite like that rush.

quote: There are other minorities in this world as well and some of them did not ask for any special treatment at all.

Who said gays were asking for special treatment? Okay, I mean who besides you. Re the Gay Games, gays are just looking for a fun sports venue where they feel welcome and comfortable, and enjoy the company of large numbers of other gays from all over the world. Why does that bother you? What exactly is the special treatment you are talking about?

quote: but I cannot agree with giving any minorities a special boost

Who's asking for a "special boost"? Why do you keep bringing up this straw man? The argument that gays are somehow asking for "special" rights is a particularly tired, threadbare old strawman.

quote: Again this causes resentment among people who may otherwise support the cause(s), and declare that they cannot achieve it on their on merits.

Do you "resent" gay people because you cannot participate in the Gay Games? Do you resent the Girl Scouts? In Calfornia they hold the annual "Gathering of the Clans" - athletic and music competitions for Scottish people - do you think they are asking for a "special boost"? Are girls and Scottish people promoting resentment against themselves? Or do your arguements only apply to gays?

quote: By your logic then (...)

FYI Tingkai was being ironic.

	29-03-2002 19:40									#196
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I'm curious as to why people who are against things such as gay pride parades and the gay games, saying that they cause segregation, typically do not care - and probably even celebrate - things like a Saint Patrick's day parade, or statutory religious holidays, among dozens of other similiar events.


Saint patrick's day doesn't breed hatred for the Irish, does it?
Christmas doesn't breed hatred against Christrians, does it?
So why does a gay Pride parade breed hatred against gays? The only answer I can think of is that it's jsut used an excuse for people to show their hatred.

	29-03-2002 22:56									#197
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun First off, you do not have to use vulgar, profane language to show off your intelligence.

I tend to get angry when, after asserting my feelings on an issue, I have those feelings twisted around so that I can be called a rednecked hick who hates gays and other minorities, mainly because of how far this is from the truth.

quote: Secondly, my mind is made up on this issue, and your mind is made up on this issue.

Reminds me of what my cousin used to say to me when we were little kids..."You believe what you believe and I belive what I believe"[/whiney kid voice]

quote: I do not understand the need for a separate Gay Olympics, but I do support gay-oriented organizations in the communities that welcome straight allies. At least you and I can PARTIALLY agree on this issue.

I agree with an organization whose purpose is to discuss equality issues in the community (whether that community is local, on a state level, collegiate level, national level, world level...)

What I do not support is a minority group having its 'own' set of something in which the group is solely for that minority. It's the same thing as having a group of white people getting together and saying this group is only for whites. Even if a group existed that did allow or even welcome blacks asians and hispanics into the group, if you called it the "White Student Union" etc. it would be considered racist. I feel that if you call a group a "Gay student Union" it is the same thing, despite past and present hardships that Homosexuals must go through. Do I think there should be white student unions? - NO It is merely an example of how you can't have one type of elitist group based on 'pride' and another of the same principle labeled 'racist'

quote: Since you still do not understand how the history of minority groups justifies their affirmation of their identity, I think we have run into a brick wall in this discussion.

No, I understand the past. I also understand that there are MANY groups that have undergone hardships...whites included! Are they equal? No! Is there any way to judge which group has been through the most hardships - NO So why further wedge the gap in a society that is breaking all barriers with separate groups for separate minorities?

quote: And when you look at the history of minority groups, you will realize why white, heterosexual men have no need to affirm their identity in the same way that minority groups do.

Maybe not, but if they should start a group to be proud of who they are, without any racist connotations, it would be the same thing as gays having a gay pride group - yet they'd be looked at as racist redneck *******s. Case in point - that's what I've been labeled solely for taking the negative side of the gay games argument!!!

	29-03-2002 23:14									#198
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Though I am against Gay olympics... I think there should be Gay/Straight Alliances in schools more often. I am also against groups that keep out others from helping, whether it be a African-American Group, or anything... it should allow other people in. That is why I disapprove of gay parades, because it increases the hatred in people's hearts which probably was minimal or not even there before. As in politics, these groups should be bipartisan, because partisan groups only split society even more and increase hatred.

Gay/Straight Alliances helps prevent many problems, however there are those people who give hell to others. The gay olympics won't accomplish anything positive.

	30-03-2002 02:16									#199
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quote: Originally posted by orange What I do not support is a minority group having its 'own' set of something in which the group is solely for that minority. It's the same thing as having a group of white people getting together and saying this group is only for whites. Even if a group existed that did allow or even welcome blacks asians and hispanics into the group, if you called it the "White Student Union" etc. it would be considered racist. I feel that if you call a group a "Gay student Union" it is the same thing, despite past and present hardships that Homosexuals must go through. Do I think there should be white student unions? - NO It is merely an example of how you can't have one type of elitist group based on 'pride' and another of the same principle labeled 'racist'

As long as organizations that center around concerns for minority groups, welcome white, straight men, there should be no problems.

Our Black Student Union on campus welcomes white members.

Our Harbor organization, our gay-straight alliance club, (now defunctional ) welcomed straight members.

There are other examples as well. So the problem that you're speaking of does not exist as long as those organizations welcome everyone interested in the issues they're dealing with.

I was not whining about what we agree and disagree on, by the way. Clearly, you're entitled to your own opinion if after considering my arguments, you do not find them convincing enough. And vice versa.

	30-03-2002 03:20									#200
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun As long as organizations that center around concerns for minority groups, welcome white, straight men, there should be no problems.

Then why would there be a major issue if a "White Student Union" formed, even if it was not exclusive to whites?

quote: Our Black Student Union on campus welcomes white members.

What can a black student union do that a normal student union can't?

quote: Our Harbor organization, our gay-straight alliance club, (now defunctional ) welcomed straight members.

Gay-straight alliance is different - its purpose, by the name, is to bridge the gap between homosexuals and heterosexuals, and presumably discusses that issue in depth. That's not what I'm talking about, in fact...I think that's a good thing.

quote: There are other examples as well. So the problem that you're speaking of does not exist as long as those organizations welcome everyone interested in the issues they're dealing with.

Use the Gay Games scenario and show me how the above fits? What 'issues' does a "Gay Games" deal with? Especially if it is solely for homosexual participants? And if it's ok to have a "Gay Games" why isn't it ok to have a "Heterosexual Games"?

Everything in America has been desegregated, and I am glad for that, so why now do minorities want to re-segregate everything?

	30-03-2002 03:26									#201
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quote: Originally posted by orange Then why would there be a major issue if a "White Student Union" formed, even if it was not exclusive to whites? What can a black student union do that a normal student union can't? Gay-straight alliance is different - its purpose, by the name, is to bridge the gap between homosexuals and heterosexuals, and presumably discusses that issue in depth. That's not what I'm talking about, in fact...I think that's a good thing. Use the Gay Games scenario and show me how the above fits? What 'issues' does a "Gay Games" deal with? Especially if it is solely for homosexual participants? And if it's ok to have a "Gay Games" why isn't it ok to have a "Heterosexual Games"? Everything in America has been desegregated, and I am glad for that, so why now do minorities want to re-segregate things? I was not whining about what we agree and disagree on, by the way. Clearly, you're entitled to your own opinion if after considering my arguments, you do not find them convincing enough. And vice versa.

[/QUOTE]



Ok, I'm going to use a mega-phone this time, Orange.

F O R T H E M I L L I O N T H T I M E I D O N O T A G R E E W I T H H A V I N G S E P A R A T E G A Y O L Y M P I C S!!!!!!!!!!!

God, aren't you happy with at least a partial agreement, man, or are you just going psycho with the other issues connected with this??

	30-03-2002 03:30									#202
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok, I'm going to use a mega-phone this time, Orange. F O R T H E M I L L I O N T H T I M E I D O N O T A G R E E W I T H H A V I N G S E P A R A T E G A Y O L Y M P I C S!!!!!!!!!!! God, aren't you happy with at least a partial agreement, man, or are you just going psycho with the other issues connected with this??

Sorry, between this and the Slavery thread I can't remember what you support and what you don't support

Ok, but you can still respond to everything but the gay games part. They are, in my opinion, valid points.

	31-03-2002 05:35									#203
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quote: Originally posted by orange Sorry, between this and the Slavery thread I can't remember what you support and what you don't support Ok, but you can still respond to everything but the gay games part. They are, in my opinion, valid points.

Yes, as much as Mr.Fun points. I guess you 2 could never come to terms with this subject.
Personnally I think you are both right......a bit to the extrem on both parts but you have valid points.

Spec.