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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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The Israeli government, after 7 hours of debate, declares Arafat an enemy of the Israeli state, and announce he will be secluded and isolated.
This comes, after the govt. was short from deciding to exile Arafat, but after tremendous pressure from Avoda members, and all chiefs of Israel's intelligence communities (Shin Bet, Aman, Mossad).
This is already followed by an action to make another medium term incursion into A terrains, and will attack terrorist targets and perform house to house search.
The PA will not be destroyed, it was decided.
This comes after for two weeks of inactivity from the Israeli side, dozens of people were killed, after Arafat did not take any steps to lower the fire, or declare a cease fire.
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Richelieu
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Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:18
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Yesterday we were talking about a chance for peace. We were talking about the Arab league proposal. Today all that has been forgotten.
The way i see this, there is only one way that this will ever end:
The Israeli people will have to say : We stop.
The Intifada will not. The terrosists will not. Not for some time anyway.
There will be many more dead on the Jewish side. But eventually it will end. When (and only when) there is no more retaliation,
when Israel decides that it will not use it's military superiority, that's when a peace process can be initiated.
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Richelieu
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Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
We said that in 1993 on the white house lawn.
We said that in 1995 in the rally where Rabin was assassinated.
We said that in 1999 when Barak won.
We said that in 2000 during camp david.
We said that in 2000 when we were negociation under fire since september until late december.
Read this about how arafat have done nothing to stop terror during all this time:
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/arti...fm?articleid=89 |
You're right on all counts : i'm not saying the effort hasn't been made.
The thing is : it's enough (more than enough) for us. But you're not dealing with us.
You're dealing with them.
To be blunt, I think the only way out of this is Gandhi's way. You will have to suffer for a long time. And accept it.
Or.
You will have to keep doing what you're doing and they'll keep doing what they're doing.
Or
You have to get rid of them.
And then, you'll have to deal with the rest of the world.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
To be blunt, I think the only way out of this is Gandhi's way. You will have to suffer for a long time. And accept it. |
Accept the fact that we are aiding Arafat to form a state which endorses terror and supports Hamas, Ilsamic Jihad, Tanzim, Fatah and such?
Accept the fact that each time Arafat wants more land he gives Hamas the green light?
Never more. No appeasement. It didn't work with Hitler.
Sadly, that's what a small group of lefties thinks we should do.
quote:
You will have to keep doing what you're doing and they'll keep doing what they're doing. |
Which means ignoring the problem, and continuing leaving this unresolved, only prolonging the suffering of the two peoples.
Never more. No ignoring. It didn't work with Osama.
quote:
You have to get rid of them.
And then, you'll have to deal with the rest of the world. |
Rid of whom?
Of Arafat & Hamas & Fatah - Yes.
Anyone who wants to stay and live peacefully in a Palestinian state next to an Israeli state, Israel and I welcome him to stay.
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Richelieu
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Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:18
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You took all three options and "destroyed" them one at a time.
I'll ask you this then: do you propose an alternative?
I posted 3 choices : do you have a solution that is outside of the boundaries of those 3 ?
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Richelieu
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Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Look, I'm not talking about the peace process.
Obviously a peace process must be, and peace, including a palestinain viable state is a necessety and more or less a fact.
The three choises are choises of dealing with terror.
1) Appease
2) Ignore
3) Root out.
1 & 2 are not favourable choises.
This war is against the terror forces, and those in the PA which support them.
Once there is a non-terrorist Palestinian entity, peace talks can go on. |
OK.
So i guess your choice is 3. Root out.
Unless you have something else in mind.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Another ME thread. |
Indeed.
As is mentioned in the title of the thread, and the first post in it, thereby giving you the freedom and ability to ignore it, if you wish, and know in advance it's contents, lest you accidentally click on it and discover this by accident.
quote:
It's great that some of you are interested in talking about an international issue to DEATH, but to me, cease fires, suicidal bombings, temporary treaties that are broken, house arrests, aerial bombings, and border disputes are nothing fresh and new to discuss. |
It is nothing new to me either. I still feel obligated to contribute to make Israel's motiefs and actions clearer, and clear misunderstandings about facts, from my own knowledge of them.
This even in particular, is quite new and since CNN decided to spend an hour covering this, I think it deserves a little thread.
quote:
But if you guys are bored, feel free to discuss whatever you want. |
We do discuss what ever we want. No one is forced to post here... except maybe me, since I'm addicted to it. 
I also spend time browsing the OT generally, participating in humorous threads, and threads about morality and culture. I belive you've met me in other threads. 
I also lurk in the Diplomacy and Civ III sections, and before Civ III came out, I was an active participant there. Actually I even made a graphic mod for Civ III.
However, given the effects of this world event, I think it's not wrong to have one or two threads devoted to it.
I remind you that there are some 39 threads on the first page of the OT that do not deal with this issue, free at your disposal. 
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
"Don't bomb Palistinean buildings, arrest the terrorists!"
"Don't seal them off from Israel, arrest the terrorists!"
"Don't confrot rock-throwing mobs, arrest the terrorists!"
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Well it isn't as easy as you think.
The people who are supposed to arrest the terrorists, are the PLO, which are terrorists themselves, and instead only supply the terrorists with funds and weapons.
But the international community expects us to ask them nicely, and believes every empty declaration ARafat makes, paying lip-service to the Americans.
Minutes after each declaration, palestinian spokesmen on the palestinian channel explain to the people that the texts were forced on Arafat by America and Israel, and are temporary and fake.
However, when we try to actually arrest the terrorists, this can only be done effectively in large scale incursions.
The world however, seems to prefer the status-quo of innocent Israelis and Palestinains getting killed all the time.
Any action which has results must be decisive, and so far, the Americans and the rest of the world prevented us from making decisive actions.
quote:
WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THEY WERE TRYING TO DO IN THOSE CAMPS?!? |
Most people are trying to live...
Some plan terracts.
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Richelieu
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Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Yes, my choise of those 3 is to root out.
Which of course must be followed by granting benefits to the people, so that they won't return to terror.
If you think there is another option (not of the 3 presented) that can deal with terror - post ahead.
Again I remind you, this only deals with the militant factions. |
I wonder : do you get any kind of feedback from the Palestinian people? Do you still have contact with them (however tense these contacts may be) ?
I'd like to know if you can feel/know if there is a difference between the Palestinian people and the Palestinian terrorists.
Or is there no way you can talk to any of them at any given moment ?
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Don't mind me Siro -- I'm just bored. |
I understood that very well
I'm just in that "pretend I'm a spokesman on CNN" mood
quote:
But for the record, I have always sympathized with Israel for the most part. |
Thanks, that's nice to hear.
Although, please don't think that anyone's political opinions affect my view on them.
I mean, sure I can think some people are silly or incredibly blind - but that doesn't affect my every day contact (or lack there of) with them.
I like Imran and Ramo and Che and Kropotkin and Gnu and many such anti-Israeli posters.
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Palestinians are suffering, but I still find myself sympathizing with Israel. |
Because Israelis are suffering too.
I clearly understand that the Palestinians are suffering more. But I attribute most of that to their leadership, which is corrupt, totalitarian, and knowingly and intentionally makes them targets of Israeli retaliations.
You can trust me that I think of dozens of scenarios "what would I do if I were PM" in regards to the situation on the ground.
It also saddens me that there are IDF soldiers who behave in inhumane fashion and are bullies. I certainly don't think it represents most of the Israeli society or Israeli army.
quote:
Anyway, carry on about the predictive cycle of the Middle East crisis. |
Thank you.
....
Oh wait, you're not a moderator.
[abort suckup squence]
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