29-03-2002 21:37									#1
	"Blacks ought to be thankful for slavery; otherwise, they'd be back in Africa." Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

That's the argument that has been used by many, many members of this board in the Slavery Reparations thread. Tuberski, White Elephants, Orange, Caligastia, David Floyd, Lung, Sava, Elucidus, and Lancer all used the argument, as you can see from the relevant quotes below.


Tuberski-

quote: Also if their ancestors weren't slaves where would they be? Africa, as a comedian(Eddie Griffin) said " Africa ain't no place for a n....black person. … And how didn't they benefit? Where do they live now? Are they free to do what they want, including suing these companies? Slaves would never have had a choice, and if slavery had not happened they would be in Africa where they would not have the freedom or relative wealth that they have now. … Once again, even though you may be correct, I point out that they live better lives here than if slavery hadn't happened. … If they were still in Africa,Do you think that they would have accumulated capital as much as whites have done in the middle class?

White Elephants-

quote: I believe it was Mohammed Ali who said, "I'm glad my grand daddy got on the boat", or something to that effect.

Orange-

quote: If they weren't brought to America, they wouldn't even be half as rich as they are now, statistically speaking.

Caligastia-

quote: I heard an interesting take on this today. A lawyer was discussing the civil case and he mentioned that a jury could opt for "restoration" vs restitution. You could restore the descendents of slaves to the conditions they would exist in if their ancestors had not been slaves. All it would take is a bunch of one way airline tickets.

David Floyd-

quote: I'd submit that the most fair course of action would be to send everyone of African descent whose ancestors were brought over in the slave trade to be given an apology and put on a plane back to Africa, from where they can apply for US immigration/citizenship if they wish. But no, these ****heads want to have their cake and eat it, too. … But wouldn't you agree that they are better off today in the US than dying of AIDs in some POS African country? Of COURSE their ancestors were screwed, but like pretty much everyone else who came to America, their descendants are 100 times better off than their ancestors. Seems to me they are just greedy SOBs who want to rob American society - which is esentially what suing corporations for $1.4 trillion is doing. And it seems to me the fact that they are alive and well and able to live in this country - regardless of the injustice of slavery - is reparation enough. … Hey smart guy, I never said blacks are well off today because of slavery, I'm saying it's an undisputable fact that on the whole they are better off here than they would be in Africa … My point is simple. Their main concern is that their descendants were forced out of their homes to come work on plantations. Fine, that was wrong, I of course agree. My solution would be to give anyone who wanted it free passage back to Africa, but anyone who chose to stay is out of luck on reparations - we take the fact that they live in the US and have received and continue to receive billions in social services/welfare, and call it even.

Lung-

quote: Have a look at Africa and tell me that it would have done better left to it's own devices I don't think it's because they're black, per se, but the proof is in the pudding - Africa is the basketcase of planet earth, and it shows no signs of abating. I won't draw any conclusions, but the facts speak for themselves

Sava-

quote: Let's face it. Black people are better off in America than they would be in Africa.

Elucidus-

quote: Can't they just say that their payment was the cost of the boat ride over here? Yes that was a joke, but seriously, wouldn't they be a lot worse off in an african nation today, if these people were even alive, that is.

Lancer-

quote: I see no problem in black people billing the decendants of slave owners for the work those slaves did if the slave owners can counter sue for transportation charges from Africa, victuals, and housing.

So here's the deal. I'd like to give all of them a chance to either 1) defend their position, or 2) retract it. There's a catch, though. If you're defending your previous argument, I'd also expect you to defend this statement:

Jews ought to be thankful for the Holocaust; otherwise, they wouldn't have Israel.

Still want to defend it, fine, go ahead. Want to retract? Good. That is rarely seen on these boards, and in my opinion it shows a measure of maturity that is essential to having an intelligent conversation.

So go ahead, boys. Just respond how you see fit. Either way, standing by your statements, or retracting them, you'll be showing bravery.

So who's first?

	29-03-2002 21:40									#2
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I suppose that I should feel greatful that I avoided the temptation to use that arguement.

	29-03-2002 21:44									#3
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I think those aren't valid comparisons

	29-03-2002 21:45									#4
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I suppose that I should feel greatful that I avoided the temptation to use that arguement.

I was pretty sure you hadn't... you tend to keep a pretty level head in a debate, and don't make such blantantly controversial statements.

However, when I went through the thread to catalogue all the quotes, I was a bit surprised at some of the names that popped up.

	29-03-2002 21:46									#5
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quote: I think those aren't valid comparisons

Explain, if you can.

	29-03-2002 21:59									#6
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Yeah, if blacks should be thankful for slavery then here are the others:

1) Jews should be thankful for the Holocaust

2) Amerindians should be thankful for the massacres and mass-property theft

3) Japanese Americans should be thankful for being forced into camps during World War II and having their property stolen

4) women should be thankful for abusive husbands and abusive boyfriends

5) Israelites should be thankful for the successful suicide bombings

6) Americans should be thankful for the 9/11 terrorist attacks

7) gays, lesbians and bisexuals should be thankful for the hate crimes commited against them

I'm sure all these people listed above are better off because of these terrible crimes.

	29-03-2002 22:10									#7
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Sorry Mr. Fun, but most of those analogies are worthless. In order for the analogy to be valid, the group you mention must have suffered a horrible act that somehow resulted in those people being better off in the long run. The Jews/Holocaust analogy holds (barely) but none of the others do. I don't think anyone would argue that the Indians, Japanese-Americans, or battered women somehow gained from the crimes commited against them.

	29-03-2002 22:10									#8
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You cant deny that the descendants of slaves in america would be worse off in africa. To do so would be to deny reality.

	29-03-2002 22:10									#9
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I certainly will not retract my statements - because I never said blacks should be thankful for slavery, you put those words in my mouth.

Lookit. It's quite simple - if all these blacks currently were in Africa, none of there ancestors were brought here, many-most of them would be dead, and the rest in abject poverty like most everyone else on that ****ed up continent.
They shouldn't be happy about slavery, but they SHOULD be thankful they live in the US today, especially with all those social services they leach off of me.

	29-03-2002 22:12									#10
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I agree with what David just said.

	29-03-2002 22:12									#11
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Never mind

Last edited by David Floyd on 30-03-2002 at 00:29

	29-03-2002 22:13									#12
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd How, again, would they be better of in Africa? And if so, they can all go back rather than robbing US corporations and society.

I had to edit my post, I wrote that by accident.

	29-03-2002 22:17									#13
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David,

I'll refrain from calling you what you obviously are(rhymes with head check. Which you need). But, lets deal with facts. More whites are on PA than blacks. Blacks as a consumer group make up an aggregate precentage greater than any other group in this country. In other words your living off of our consumerism. Read a book sometime!!!!!

	29-03-2002 22:21									#14
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quote: Originally posted by SultanofATL David, I'll refrain from calling you what you obviously are(rhymes with head check. Which you need). But, lets deal with facts. More whites are on PA than blacks. Blacks as a consumer group make up an aggregate precentage greater than any other group in this country. In other words your living off of our consumerism. Read a book sometime!!!!!

Before you start ranting and raving stop and take a deep breath because we are not talking about that.

	29-03-2002 22:22									#15
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quote: I'll refrain from calling you what you obviously are(rhymes with head check. Which you need). But, lets deal with facts. More whites are on PA than blacks. Blacks as a consumer group make up an aggregate precentage greater than any other group in this country. In other words your living off of our consumerism. Read a book sometime!!!!!

First off, excuse me for implying all blacks are on welfare - obviously that isn't true. My point was simply that they have greatly benefitted, as an entire group, from being in the US rather than some shithole in Africa, and no one can really deny that.

So if you wanna deal with facts, deal with THAT.

	29-03-2002 22:24									#16
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This reminds me of my American history teacher saying that the most intelligent Africans were caught and brought over to America What nonsense, but then again I don't expect much from...

BTW the argument works the other way around too: The most stupid were those who got caught...

	29-03-2002 22:25									#17
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Lars, what does THAT have to do with anything??

	29-03-2002 22:30									#18
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This argument is almost hysterically inane, considering that none of the black people alive today would exist in world without slavery, since removal of slavery would shake history up so much that the world would be completely different. To assume that someone currently alive and black in America would even be existing if his ancestors hadn't been brought to America as slaves would require that his ancestors, who might have belonged to different tribes in all corners of Africa, would have magically met each other, and their children had met each other, and so on. It also requires to assume none of them die before contributing to this grand chain of breeding, and that all are born with same genetic backgrounds. Furthermore, it would assume that all the white people doubtlessly having had their part in this genetic tango would come to Africa for specific purpose of contributing to this dance of inheritance. In other words, 'taint happening.

	29-03-2002 22:34									#19
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Again exactly how have they benefited? How much do you know about africa? Don't believe everything you see on T.V. Land ownership in America...Blacks are last. Don't you think this is possible because unlike most groups who came to America our ancestors weren't allowed to homestead and achieve the American dream? Not to mention that here in the south blacks dealt with 'jimmy crowe' until middle to late 60's that seriously hindered educational development which has a direct effect on prosperity. Yeah slavery has been benificial for about 30 years!??!!!!

	29-03-2002 22:41									#20
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I just love all the speculative history here. All you so-called experts must have Divine Knowledge that African society would be entirely the same today in the absence of slavery, which strip-mined africas intellectual capital, not to mention the exploitation of colonialism as a whole.

I won't mention names, but wake up and smell what you're shoveling.

Dave

	29-03-2002 22:41									#21
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I resent that Guy, the quote you used is taken out of context.

I do NOT justify slavery by saying "oh, well hey they can't complain, they got a free voyage to the land of opportunity." What I am saying is that it's impossible for everyone to go back and extract greivances for past injustices to family members, or else we'd all have a suit against everyone! There were plenty of injustices in the past, more than we know of, so lets just go on with the future and accept the fact that, despite the hardships we've ALL had to go through, we are all living in an age now where inequality and social injustice are swiftly dying out, and are virtually non existant in America and the rest of the west. If Blacks need a 1.4 Trillion Dollar check to make ammends, just think of all the other law suits that will have to be filed and answered in order for the world to be 'all paid up'

It's just not worth it.

However, I do agree with funding Urban programs by taxing corporations, and if you really think about it, those blacks that are living in poverty or less than mediocre conditions 'because of slavery' will be able to move up not as a race, but as a class, along with their white and hispanic counterparts in the cities and urban class. NOTHING in this country should ever be done according to race (IE same reason I'm against Affirmative Action)

	29-03-2002 22:41									#22
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Lars, what does THAT have to do with anything??

What has anything to do with anything? Puhleez.

I know my post was irrelevant to the thread's subject, but it's no big deal for me. For you on the other hand...

	29-03-2002 22:43									#23
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quote: Originally posted by SultanofATL Again exactly how have they benefited? How much do you know about africa? Don't believe everything you see on T.V. Land ownership in America...Blacks are last. Don't you think this is possible because unlike most groups who came to America our ancestors weren't allowed to homestead and achieve the American dream? Not to mention that here in the south blacks dealt with 'jimmy crowe' until middle to late 60's that seriously hindered educational development which has a direct effect on prosperity. Yeah slavery has been benificial for about 30 years!??!!!!

If you think blacks in the US are no better off than those in africa you need a reality check buddy.

	29-03-2002 22:44									#24
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I never made the argument in question, but this analogy between blacks/slavery and Jews/Holocaust is not valid. One would first have to argue that the Jews that currently live in Isreal would be significantly worse off if they lived in Europe before this analogy could be made to stick. Given that Europe (at least the Western half) is very stable while Isreal has been repeatedly subject to terrorist attacks over the past half-century, I don't think that anybody can successfully make the argument that the Jews are significantly better off in Isreal than in Europe.

	29-03-2002 22:44									#25
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd They shouldn't be happy about slavery, but they SHOULD be thankful they live in the US today, especially with all those social services they leach off of me.

You are a conceited self righteous *******

	29-03-2002 22:45									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu This argument is almost hysterically inane, considering that none of the black people alive today would exist in world without slavery, since removal of slavery would shake history up so much that the world would be completely different. To assume that someone currently alive and black in America would even be existing if his ancestors hadn't been brought to America as slaves would require that his ancestors, who might have belonged to different tribes in all corners of Africa, would have magically met each other, and their children had met each other, and so on. It also requires to assume none of them die before contributing to this grand chain of breeding, and that all are born with same genetic backgrounds. Furthermore, it would assume that all the white people doubtlessly having had their part in this genetic tango would come to Africa for specific purpose of contributing to this dance of inheritance. In other words, 'taint happening.

Youre right, there is a good possibility that they wouldnt exist without slavery. So what is your point? They are better off not existing?

	29-03-2002 22:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I never made the argument in question, but this analogy between blacks/slavery and Jews/Holocaust is not valid. One would first have to argue that the Jews that currently live in Isreal would be significantly worse off if they lived in Europe before this analogy could be made to stick. Given that Europe (at least the Western half) is very stable while Isreal has been repeatedly subject to terrorist attacks over the past half-century, I don't think that anybody can successfully make the argument that the Jews are significantly better off in Isreal than in Europe.

Not to mention the fact that the Zionist movement was already well underway before World War II even started. The Holocaust undoubtably helped to guarantee that the Jews would be allowed to form the state of Israel, but to say that it is the sole reason is a gross oversimplification. The presence of Jews in Israel cannot be attributed to one event, as the presence of Africans in the United States can be.

	29-03-2002 22:53									#28
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Presumably if there was no African slavery in North America, African peoples would've been able to offer goods more valuable than slaves to Europeans, so their economies would have had to bemore developed, and their states would've been strong enough to resist the worst of colonialism, namely the perpetual undermining of native industry and states with arbitrary national borders, and would be a much better place to live in than in our current timeline.

	29-03-2002 22:55									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Presumably if there was no African slavery in North America, African peoples would've been able to offer goods more valuable than slaves to Europeans, so their economies would have had to bemore developed, and their states would've been strong enough to resist the worst of colonialism, namely the perpetual undermining of native industry and states with arbitrary national borders, and would be a much better place to live in than in our current timeline.

...you presume.

	29-03-2002 22:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia If you think blacks in the US are no better off than those in africa you need a reality check buddy.

I repeat have you ever been to Africa? Its not all desert and jungle. Not everyone lives in huts. As a matter of fact have you been to middle america lately? Or the deep souther US? I would venture to say these poor areas are just as bad as the worst places in Africa. I'm not saying I'd want to live in Africa. Mainly because I'm an American. But, it is totally unfounded for you to say that blacks wouldn't be happy or happier if we had been able to come to America by choice as a lot of Africans do now. Just trying to enlighten you and others.