30-03-2002 01:59									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia What is it about that statement that you disagree with?

Basically, slavery has reduced the status of blacks as compared to white Americans.


Essentially, it comes down to this. Just as the Jews MIGHT have gotten Israel eventually without the Holocaust, blacks might have emigrated to the U.S. without slavery, and would be in much better shape economically, politcally, and socially because of it. There's no reason for them to be "thankful" for slavery, or to think slavery had an "unintended benefit" for them.



Drake--

Again, is Israel a better place than Europe? Depends on your perspective. In Israel, they're in power; they can assure that they aren't oppressed and wiped out by the government. In Europe, they'd be a minority, vulnerable as any.

	30-03-2002 02:02									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Simply because they are still better off than they would have been.

"Thank heaven for slavery! We're second-class citizens and marginalized and profiled and denied rights, but hey, at least we're Americans!"

Bullshit.

Why should they be thankful for being second-class citizens?

	30-03-2002 02:03									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Basically, slavery has reduced the status of blacks as compared to white Americans. Essentially, it comes down to this. Just as the Jews MIGHT have gotten Israel eventually without the Holocaust, blacks might have emigrated to the U.S. without slavery, and would be in much better shape economically, politcally, and socially because of it. There's no reason for them to be "thankful" for slavery, or to think slavery had an "unintended benefit" for them.

Thank you. Seriously. I'm going to link this to several sites because you have said what this argument boils down to in the most eloquent way.

	30-03-2002 02:04									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer , blacks might have emigrated to the U.S. without slavery

Might have eh? Well thats just total speculation. Not only that, but its an extremely unlikely scenario. Its far far more likely that their descendants would still be in africa today.

	30-03-2002 02:05									#95
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Plus its not just Whites its almost all groups that came here by free will and had basic rights upon thier first steps upon our soil.

	30-03-2002 02:05									#96
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quote: Originally posted by SultanofATL Thank you. Seriously. I'm going to link this to several sites because you have said what this argument boils down to in the most eloquent way.

Thanks for the compliment, but I've done better. In retrospect, that was an awfully awkward sentence.

	30-03-2002 02:08									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer "Thank heaven for slavery! We're second-class citizens and marginalized and profiled and denied rights, but hey, at least we're Americans!" Bullshit. Why should they be thankful for being second-class citizens?

Whether you consider them to be "second-class citizens" here or not, the fact remains that they are better off being "second class" citizens here than in africa.

	30-03-2002 02:09									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Might have eh? Well thats just total speculation. Not only that, but its an extremely unlikely scenario. Its far far more likely that their descendants would still be in africa today.

Why do you say that? Immigration from Africa has exploded in recent decades.

As for it being speculation, well, big fat duh. It's also speculation to say that Israel would have been given to the Jews without the Holocaust.

	30-03-2002 02:10									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Drake-- Again, is Israel a better place than Europe? Depends on your perspective. In Israel, they're in power; they can assure that they aren't oppressed and wiped out by the government. In Europe, they'd be a minority, vulnerable as any.

That's the problem with your analogy. You compare one situation (slavery) in which it is almost certain that the horrible act had some positive consequences and compared it to another situation (the Holocaust) in which there is no certainty as to whether the horrible act actually had positive consequences or not. Israel might be a better place to live than Europe, but there is just a great a chance that staying in Europe might have been the best move. In the end, it seems like you wanted to use the Holocaust for its shock value (as many people do) but didn't really think about the major differences between the two scenarios.

Anyway, I'm done ragging on you for now. From what I've read of your posts, you seem like a decent person and I certainly don't want to offend you over something as stupid as a misused analogy. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

	30-03-2002 02:12									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Whether you consider them to be "second-class citizens" here or not, the fact remains that they are better off being "second class" citizens here than in africa.

My stars, you're obtuse.

Slavery made them second-class citizens here. It didn't have to be that way! There's no way they should be grateful for that!

Anyway, we're straying from the point of the thread. You defended the two theses; thank you for your honesty. Seriously, I really do appreciate it.

Oh Lord, I've knowing participated in a threadjacking of my own thread. I need sleep.

	30-03-2002 02:13									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Why do you say that? Immigration from Africa has exploded in recent decades.

Back then it would have been almost impossible for the average native african to immigrate to the USA.

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer As for it being speculation, well, big fat duh. It's also speculation to say that Israel would have been given to the Jews without the Holocaust.

Well that is not what we are talking about is it? I was talking about slavery in america, I dont know about you...

	30-03-2002 02:13									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Anyway, I'm done ragging on you for now. From what I've read of your posts, you seem like a decent person and I certainly don't want to offend you over something as stupid as a misused analogy. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Fair enough. But I'm right.

	30-03-2002 02:15									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Fair enough. But I'm right.

You are completely and utterly wrong!



edit: Put that in your sig and smoke it.

	30-03-2002 02:16									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Of course you are!

See! You admitted it! I might just put that in my signature.

	30-03-2002 02:18									#105
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Why are the technicalities of a hypothetical situation being debated? It seems inredibly pointless and futile to me.

	30-03-2002 02:19									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer My stars, you're obtuse.

Im not being obtuse, I am sticking to the topic of this thread - unlike you.

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Slavery made them second-class citizens here. It didn't have to be that way! There's no way they should be grateful for that!

So are you denying that being a "second class" citizen here is better than living in africa?

quote: Anyway, we're straying from the point of the thread.

You sure are.

quote: You defended the two theses; thank you for your honesty. Seriously, I really do appreciate it.

Well I dont appreciate your insults, so shove it!

	30-03-2002 02:20									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Why are the technicalities of a hypothetical situation being debated? It seems inredibly pointless and futile to me.

Well, it's my own fault for engaging in them. You're right, I'd like to bring this back on point, if at all possible.

There are still several people who have yet to respond at all, and a few who have decided to merely debate the technicalities.

	30-03-2002 02:24									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Im not being obtuse, I am sticking to the topic of this thread - unlike you.

Well, neither of us are. All I wanted to know was whether you'd defend the theses, I honestly didn't want to get into a debate about their validity.

quote: So are you denying that being a "second class" citizen here is better than living in africa?

I've said it several times, but it appears that I must do so again:
Assuming all other things would remain the same in this "alternate timeline", yes, being a second-class citizen here is likely better than living in Africa. But it is WORSE than what other Americans experience, and likely worse than what black Americans would experience if not for slavery. Dig?

quote: Well I dont appreciate your insults, so shove it!

I apologize. I'll also retract my compliments, if you so desire.

	30-03-2002 02:26									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Why are the technicalities of a hypothetical situation being debated? It seems inredibly pointless and futile to me.

Well we are debating whether slavery had some unintended positive outcomes or not, so we have to get hypothetical in some way.

We have to ask ourselves which is more likely:

1 - The descendants of african slaves in the US are better off than descendants who would have remained in africa without slavery.

2 - The descendants of african slaves in the US are worse off than descendants who would have remained in africa without slavery.


I say #1.

	30-03-2002 02:31									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Well we are debating whether slavery had some unintended positive outcomes or not, so we have to get hypothetical in some way.

The debate is about whether blacks should be thankful for slavery, and the answer to that is, of course, NO.


Wether they are 'better off' or not is not only irrelevant, it's impossible to know.

	30-03-2002 02:32									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I've said it several times, but it appears that I must do so again: Assuming all other things would remain the same in this "alternate timeline", yes, being a second-class citizen here is likely better than living in Africa. But it is WORSE than what other Americans experience, and likely worse than what black Americans would experience if not for slavery. Dig?

I know what you are saying, I honestly do, but if not for slavery there would be no black descendants of slaves in america - correct? So how can what they experience now be "likely worse than what black Americans would experience if not for slavery" when there wouldnt be black americans descended from slaves if not for slavery.

quote: I apologize. I'll also retract my compliments, if you so desire.

Thats up to you. I can do without insults though. Apology accepted.

	30-03-2002 02:35									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I know what you are saying, I honestly do, but if not for slavery there would be no black descendants of slaves in america - correct? So how can what they experience now be "likely worse than what black Americans would experience if not for slavery" when there wouldnt be black americans descended from slaves if not for slavery.

EXACTLY! In that scenario, black Americans WOULD NOT BE descended from slaves! They likely would have better status in America! THAT is why they shouldn't be thankful for slavery! Now do you see what I'm saying?

And stop threadjacking!

	30-03-2002 02:35									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld The debate is about whether blacks should be thankful for slavery, and the answer to that is, of course, NO.

In your opinion.

quote: Wether they are 'better off' or not is not only irrelevant, it's impossible to know.

Right! Its impossible to know for sure, sooooo....

quote: We have to ask ourselves which is more likely: 1 - The descendants of african slaves in the US are better off than descendants who would have remained in africa without slavery. 2 - The descendants of african slaves in the US are worse off than descendants who would have remained in africa without slavery.

	30-03-2002 02:39									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer EXACTLY! In that scenario, black Americans WOULD NOT BE descended from slaves! They likely would have better status in America! THAT is why they shouldn't be thankful for slavery! Now do you see what I'm saying?

Yes, but we are talking about black americans who are descended from slaves. Black americans not descended from slaves are irrelevant. We dont even know if there would be such a thing as a black american in that scenario.

	30-03-2002 02:39									#115
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I'm afraid a lot of you guys are wasting your time with the argument on whether or not descendants of Africans would be better off or worse off in Africa had there been no slavery.

It's all irrelevant. Slavery was reality in the United States until 1865. That is relevant.

Talk about what was reality -- do not talk about something that is unreasonably speculative on something that is not even relevant.

	30-03-2002 02:44									#116
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm afraid a lot of you guys are wasting your time with the argument on whether or not descendants of Africans would be better off or worse off in Africa had there been no slavery. It's all irrelevant. Slavery was reality in the United States until 1865. That is relevant. Talk about what was reality -- do not talk about something that is unreasonably speculative on something that is not even relevant.

I didnt start this thread.

This topic is relevant to the discussion of reparations for slavery. The reason they are asking for reparations is because they feel they are owed something. If their present situation is better than is would have been without slavery how can they claim to be owed something?

	30-03-2002 02:51									#117
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Calligsta, How about this: Cripple your legs, and 60 years from now when the technology allows(atleast, you'd better hope it does), you can get bionic legs and be able to run faster and jump further then you ever could... or atleast just aswell as you could before... well, maybe... I think...


Sounds like a good deal, no? You'd be thankful of being crippled most of your life, 'cause in the end, you'd get some nifty bionic legs... or at least some crutches!




I don't understand how anyone could possibly think that blacks should be thankful for slavery.

	30-03-2002 02:51									#118
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If blacks are better off today in United States than they would have been in African states without slavery, that does not mean that slavery reparations would be unfair.

Here's an example:

A person is forced to live off of less than half the calories than the required number of calories for a healthy diet.

Based on your logic, he is better off on half number of calories than no calories, so he does not need to be on a diet of full calories, even though he is half-starving.

Keep him on half number of calories since he is already better than being dead from complete starvation, even though he is still half-starving.

Or is this a bad analogy??

	30-03-2002 02:54									#119
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Caligastia, ask them if they would rather live in the US or the third world, it's as close as you'll ever get to winning this debate. A politically correct individual is not free to have their opinion swayed to a non politically correct pov. How could they ever face their more PC than thou college clique if they ever gave in to a reasoned arguement?

No, they are prone to name calling as soon as anything starts going against them, so you might just as well let them be content in their little PC reality world, rather than pointlessly try to show them the error of their ways.

Besides, some of them are nice people, so its best just to avoid certain subjects where they are not free to think for themselves.

	30-03-2002 02:57									#120
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun If blacks are better off today in United States than they would have been in African states without slavery, that does not mean that slavery reparations would be unfair. Here's an example: A person is forced to live off of less than half the calories than the required number of calories for a healthy diet. Based on your logic, he is better off on half number of calories than no calories, so he does not need to be on a diet of full calories, even though he is half-starving. Keep on half number of calories since he is already better than beind dead from complete starvation, even though he is still half-starving. Or is this a bad analogy??

Its not too bad of an analogy, but I just dont think throwing money at the problem will make it go away.

Its never good for someone to recieve money they havent earned. It would be much better to make sure everyone has equal opportunity than to artificially and temporarily make them more materially equal.