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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:18
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You are a conceited self righteous ******* |
Why thank you 
ATL, first off you know good and well that compared to the US, on the whole, Africa is a shithole - famine, war, corruption, AIDs, other disease, etc., all FAR more prevalent than in the US.
No, I've never been, but that really doesn't matter. Yes, there are nice parts of Africa. Yes, there are terrible parts of the US (both North and South - Harlem, anyone? :rolleyes . The percentage of Africans living well is probably smaller than the percentage of Americans living in poverty (although that poverty is mostly their own fault). BUT, the average American lives far, far, far better than the average African. Not to mention what we call poverty here certainly is not poverty in Africa, and many times what they call rich in Africa probably roughly corresponds with my lifestyle, if that (unless you want to argue that corrupt dictators and their lackeys live well, but I wouldn't brag about that  ). Finally, one thing in Africa that is not that prevalent here - disease. Those numbers speak for themselves.
Let me ask you this. Ignore that you are an American. Pretend you are, I dunno, Vietnamese, and have the option to go to either Africa the US. Where do you go? I think it's obvious - you would go to the US, and if anyone answers otherwise I'd question their honesty.
Now, on to your statistics.
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In 1992, 47% of Black juveniles lived below the poverty level. |
It might be important to note how many of these people are dropouts, how many of their parents were, and how the welfare state has screwed them.
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Black males compose 19.4 % of the special education population while making up 8.2% of the national school enrollment |
Proves nothing at all, except the obvious - that many blacks are in special education programs 
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· In 1993, Black males accounted for 65% of the 6,000 juvenile offenders held in adult prisons
· It is estimated that 1 in every 4 Black males, 28% of the Black male population, will be incarcerated in a federal or state prison at least once in their lifetime
· By the age of 20, an estimated 7.9% of Black males will serve a federal or state prison sentence
· During 1992, the national cost of incarcerating 490,000 Black males was $8.9 billion per year |
Proves nothing except that blacks commit crimes.
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· In 1993, 49% of all gunshot victims were Black males ages 15-24
· In 1992, there were 3,718 homicides of Black males ages 12-24, which represented 17% of all homicide victims. This was a rate of 114 homicides per 100,000 Black males
· In 1992, Black males were 14 times more likely to be homicide victims than any other racial group |
I'd venture to say that the majority of this is black-on-black violence, so let's not use this to say you deserve reparations
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as many as 800,000 Americans are homeless on any day |
People are lazy and squander opportunity. So what?
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Guynemer
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Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
You're technically correct, as today there are later African immigrants that were not victims of the slave trade. However, since we are dealing with slavery and its effects on the descendents of slaves, I think it is only prudent to look solely at how Africans who came to this country while slavery was still in effect got to this nation. If you can show me a significant source of African immigration in the pre-1865 period that did not involve the slave trade, I'll gladly rescind my comments. The Africans who immigrated later have little to do with any discussion of reparations, so I don't see the need to include them in this debate. |
Define "significant source of African immigration in the pre-1865 period that did not involve the slave trade." What would make it "significant"? After surfing around for a while, I found a site that listed African immigrants pre-Civil War at somewhere around 2,000... it was by decade, so I didn't add it up, and I thought I could find a better website. Sadly, no. I can try to dig it up again, but it may take a while.
Regardless, just as Israel can not be solely attributed to the Holocaust, blacks in American can not be solely attributed to slavery. The analogy seems apt to me.
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny
David.....
To make a blanket condemnation of America's homeless as "lazy" and "squandering opportunities" is one of the more crass and ignorant comments I've read today. You're better than that. |
Are you sure of that?
Actually, I'm sorry. That's a cheap shot. But David, you really do turn into a hemorrhoidal a**hole when the topic of conversation comes anywhere near race. You're usually more intelligent than that.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
But it's true.
Were it not for slavery, many blacks likely would not be America.
Were it not for the Holocaust, Jews likely wouldn't have Israel.
So, since several people have said that blacks are better off because of slavery, I would just like them to admit that they also think that Jews are better off because of the Holocaust. |
The creation of the israeli state was not solely because of the holocaust, but if it was it would be fair to say that the creation of Israel was an unintended positive outcome, just as slavery has had unintended positive outcomes for blacks.
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Guynemer
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Here you go, Sparky.
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Excuse me Guynemer, but I find this discussion dificult to take seriously.
I see no problem in black people billing the decendants of slave owners for the work those slaves did if the slave owners can counter sue for transportation charges from Africa, victuals, and housing.
Why?
Because the decendants of slaves have something here in America that their relatives in Africa lack.
Oportunity.
Also, most of the slaves were owned by blacks before being sold to slavers. The blacks were tribal of course, and would sell POWs in the coastal slave markets, run by blacks, for money to finance their continued wars. Before slavery started these poor unfortunate POWs were commonly tortured to death. SO, instead of sueing people who weren't even alive at that time, or companies that were involved in the slave trade whose owners and stockholders weren't alive at that time, maybe the blacks ought to try to obtain money in the land of oportunity the old fashioned way, earn it. Just like the English settlers, the Poles, Jews, Germans and Irish. All these groups had a fight to begin with. Perhaps not against slavery, but at first against an undeveloped land, later against extreme poverty and racism, such as the Irish.
My mother, decended from German imigrants, suffered great hardships growing up in poor, dirty,overcrowded cities. Her people did flee europe because of religious persicution. Am I to sue the governments of europe for the religious intolerance of the 1600s?
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Feel better now?
So the Jews now have the opportunity for self-government. Thank goodness for the Holocaust.
At the very least, admit that your "joke" was disgusting. (I'm also wondering how it can count as a joke if you still go on to seriously justify it.)
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
The creation of the israeli state was not solely because of the holocaust, but if it was it would be fair to say that the creation of Israel was an unintended positive outcome, just as slavery has had unintended positive outcomes for blacks. |
Okay. Fine. This is all I'm looking for. I don't agree with your position at all, but at least you've balls enough to come out and say this. Bully for you.
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Drake Tungsten
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Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
Define "significant source of African immigration in the pre-1865 period that did not involve the slave trade." What would make it "significant"? After surfing around for a while, I found a site that listed African immigrants pre-Civil War at somewhere around 2,000... it was by decade, so I didn't add it up, and I thought I could find a better website. Sadly, no. I can try to dig it up again, but it may take a while.
Regardless, just as Israel can not be solely attributed to the Holocaust, blacks in American can not be solely attributed to slavery. The analogy seems apt to me. |
Ok, I'm going to try to explain why I think your analogy is flawed.
I think the argument for why slavery did have some unintended positive effects can be simplified down to this statement.
Slavery is the reason why the descendents of slaves are in America-> America is a much better place to live than Africa-> Therefore, slavery did have some positive effects
Note that this only pertains to the descendants of slaves, who are the folks for whom reparations are being considered. Not every black in America is included in this.
Now, a similar statement for your Holocaust analogy would look something like this.
The Holocaust is the reason why Israel exists-> Israel is a better place to live than Europe-> The Holocaust did have some positive effects
In order for this to work, we'll only count the Jews who fled Europe after the Holocaust and will ignore all the Jews who arrived in Israel before the war or who came from places other than Europe. However, even when you limit the statement to those Jews whose presence in Israel is most dependent on the Holocaust, you still don't have a workable argument. This is for two reasons.
1. As I brought up, the Holocaust is not the reason that Israel exists. It definitely played a role in speeding up the creation of a Jewish state, but it is quite possible that Israel would've been formed even if the Holocaust had never happened.
2. As Loinburger brought up, there is no reason to believe that the Jews are any better off in Israel than they would've been if they had stayed in Europe. Living conditions in the two places are comparable and Israel is certainly not a safe place to be right now.
Compare these problems with the statement about slavery. First, we know that slaves and their descendents are in America because of the slave trade (duh). Second, it is almost guaranteed that the conditions descendents of slaves experience in America are superior to those they would be experiencing if their families had remained in Africa. I know that you will claim that this is speculation and you would be right. However, it is well supported speculation given the horrendous conditions in Africa these days.
Basically what you get from this whole mess is one statement that makes some logical sense, whether you agree with it or not, and a second statement that really doesn't make sense. The only real connection between the slavery statement and the Holocaust statement is that slavery and the Holocaust were both really bad things. That's certainly not enough to base a working analogy off of, at least in my opinion.
Damn that was long. I hope it all made sense.
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:18
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The quote you used was my attempt to show you WHY I found the discussion difficult to take seriously. The decendants of blacks sueing people or companies today is just absurd to me. It is perhaps the end result of our litigious society. Can I sue because some european country chased out my mother's ancesters on religious grounds? The whole this is REDICULOUS. I attempted to show how rediculous using the bit you qouted. So you see, it was out of context.
Regarding black people today being better off for being in the US, yes I believe that. Certainly the slaves themselves were only better off if you consider the horrible alternative that they faced.
A POW that wasn't sold as a slave would be tortured to death. Is he better off being sold as a slave? Put yourself in his place Guynemer. Sure, living as a slave would be very bad, but wouldn't it be better than being tortured to death? I'm not saying slavery was right, it was horrible no doubt. No human should own another. However, in this case the individual was better off, if he was a POW, as so many were.
The blacks today have a shot at living in a country other than a third world deathtrap. Sure, if a kid decides to be a LA gang banger maybe he has less chance at life, but at least he had a choice. What shot do you have if you are stuck in Africa? Consider the growing number of middle class blacks in the US, raising thier families in peace and prosperity. Find a comperable group in Africa...
Slavery was miserable, but are the decendants of slavery better off?
Well, would you rather live in the US or the third world?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
Okay. Fine. This is all I'm looking for. I don't agree with your position at all, but at least you've balls enough to come out and say this. Bully for you. |
What is it about that statement that you disagree with?
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
Slavery was miserable, but are the decendants of slavery better off?
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Assuming everything else would be the same as they are today? For the most part, yes, they are better off than most Africans.
Are white Americans better off than most black Americans?
If the answer is yes (and here's a hint: IT IS), then how can black Americans be thankful for slavery?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Guynemer
If the answer is yes (and here's a hint: IT IS), then how can black Americans be thankful for slavery? |
Simply because they are still better off than they would have been.
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30-03-2002 00:41
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