29-03-2002 22:57									#31
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quote: Originally posted by SultanofATL I would venture to say these poor areas are just as bad as the worst places in Africa.

Were you to venture this opinion, you would be incorrect.

	29-03-2002 22:58									#32
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quote: ...you presume.

Errr.. yeah. That's why I wrote "Presumably..."

	29-03-2002 23:06									#33
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quote: "Blacks ought to be thankful for slavery; otherwise, they'd be back in Africa."

We must therefore be thankful for the Black Death, the Holocaust, and the World Wars then. It's pretty obvious that if any single event in history had turned out differently, the entire world would have been subtly different and none of us would have been born.

In the same way, be thankful for the population explosion. Alot of you, including me, would not have been born if family planning had started earlier.

	29-03-2002 23:08									#34
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This is a tempest in a teacup. Of course, blacks in America are better off in America than in Africa. Most black Americans are firmly planted in the middle class and enjoy a high quality of life.

That doesn't justify slavery, however. Rather, it is a mitigating factor when evaluating the evil that was slavery.

	29-03-2002 23:21									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That doesn't justify slavery, however. Rather, it is a mitigating factor when evaluating the evil that was slavery.

I don't think that anybody here has actually used the argument in question in order to justify slavery, regardless of what is in the thread title.

	29-03-2002 23:21									#36
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quote: Originally posted by SultanofATL I repeat have you ever been to Africa? Its not all desert and jungle. Not everyone lives in huts. As a matter of fact have you been to middle america lately? Or the deep souther US? I would venture to say these poor areas are just as bad as the worst places in Africa. I'm not saying I'd want to live in Africa. Mainly because I'm an American. But, it is totally unfounded for you to say that blacks wouldn't be happy or happier if we had been able to come to America by choice as a lot of Africans do now. Just trying to enlighten you and others.

Sorry, but you are totally and utterly wrong. Im amazed that you could actually believe such a thing.

	29-03-2002 23:23									#37
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I don't think that anybody here has actually used the argument in question in order to justify slavery, regardless of what is in the thread title.

Quite right. The person who started this thread just doesnt want to admit that there have been unintended positive outcomes as a result of slavery.

	29-03-2002 23:24									#38
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Answer the question!!!!!! Have you ever been to Africa????????

	29-03-2002 23:30									#39
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quote: Originally posted by SultanofATL Answer the question!!!!!! Have you ever been to Africa????????

No, but I have lived with native africans for a year and spoken to many people who have lived there. Everyone agrees its a shithole.

What about you? Have you been there?

	29-03-2002 23:30									#40
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Africa is a shithole with no future. The average people make less than 60$ a year, and there is **** for infrastructure and constant wars, disease, famine.....etc. The UN says at this rate, africa will be destroyed in 50 years anyway.


Note: None of these seem to happen in America. And if they do, there are services to get help. Such things dont exist in Africa.

ATL yor comments are way off.

	29-03-2002 23:33									#41
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory ATL yor comments are way off.

I think hes in a little over his head.

	29-03-2002 23:34									#42
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quote: Originally posted by SultanofATL Answer the question!!!!!! Have you ever been to Africa????????

Have you? I certainly hope you got some primary, or at least secondary, sources before you tried to "enlighten" us...

	29-03-2002 23:37									#43
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You just cant compare anything with Africa.1.5 milion people are threatened with Starvation this year an another 5 million moderately threatened. You just dont find this in America. The least, there is always places to go for Food (Churches, shelters, etc....) Not so in the Shithole


Like I said. Africa wont exist in 50 years. It will have destroyed itself.

	29-03-2002 23:49									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Quite right. The person who started this thread just doesnt want to admit that there have been unintended positive outcomes as a result of slavery.

Kindly list the positive outcomes of the Holocaust, if you will.

	29-03-2002 23:51									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Kindly list the positive outcomes of the Holocaust, if you will.

I for one can't think of any. However, it's your analogy, so in all fairness you ought to be the one to list the positive outcomes of the Holocaust.

	29-03-2002 23:54									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Kindly list the positive outcomes of the Holocaust, if you will.

Im not talking about the holocoust. You are.

	29-03-2002 23:58									#47
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I for one can't think of any. However, it's your analogy, so in all fairness you ought to be the one to list the positive outcomes of the Holocaust.

It's my analogy because I think both arguments are ****.

	30-03-2002 00:00									#48
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No I've never been. The reason I asked is because if you have then maybe you know something I don't. Yes, there are areas of Africa that suck. But, Africans I know have told me that many of its areas are fine. Most notably those in Middle Africa. Now where I have been is on humanitarian missions to west virginia, miiss., south georgia, louisiana, etc. Some of these places don't have plumbing. The people there don't have medical treatment. Hell, look at the death rate for the black males in the US that live in Urban area's. Look at the healthcare crisis in black communities where we die at a rate twice as high from heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes. Look at downtown atlanta where homeless men sleep on every corner(when we don't have some big event coming in). Look at the prisons. Hell is relative friend. Me I've got a nice little life. Ask some others and I know my argument would get seconded. Like I said before read up on something that CNN and mainstream media don't produce. Most people are better off over here. But, like anywhere else we've got our armpits too.

	30-03-2002 00:01									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Im not talking about the holocoust. You are.

You're one of the posters who advocated that blacks seeking reparations ought to be given a one-way flight to Africa.

The implication is that blacks ought to be thankful for slavery.

So should Jews be thankful for the Holocaust?

	30-03-2002 00:01									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer It's my analogy because I think both arguments are ****.

Ahh, that's the basis for any good analogy.

	30-03-2002 00:03									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Ahh, that's the basis for any good analogy.

But it's true.

Were it not for slavery, many blacks likely would not be America.

Were it not for the Holocaust, Jews likely wouldn't have Israel.

So, since several people have said that blacks are better off because of slavery, I would just like them to admit that they also think that Jews are better off because of the Holocaust.

	30-03-2002 00:07									#52
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Loinburger and I both gave reasons on the first page of this thread attempting to show why your analogy between slavery and the Holocaust is not a sound one. If you could refute those reasons, maybe I would be more interested in hearing what others have to say about the Holocaust. Until then, however, I will stick by my belief that this analogy is false and misleading.

	30-03-2002 00:19									#53
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In 1990, 61% of all Black males lived in single-parent homes
· In 1992, 47% of Black juveniles lived below the poverty level.
· Black males compose 19.4 % of the special education population while making up 8.2% of the national school enrollment
· In 1993, Black males accounted for 65% of the 6,000 juvenile offenders held in adult prisons
· It is estimated that 1 in every 4 Black males, 28% of the Black male population, will be incarcerated in a federal or state prison at least once in their lifetime
· By the age of 20, an estimated 7.9% of Black males will serve a federal or state prison sentence
· During 1992, the national cost of incarcerating 490,000 Black males was $8.9 billion per year
· In 1993, 49% of all gunshot victims were Black males ages 15-24
· In 1992, there were 3,718 homicides of Black males ages 12-24, which represented 17% of all homicide victims. This was a rate of 114 homicides per 100,000 Black males
· In 1992, Black males were 14 times more likely to be homicide victims than any other racial group
as many as 800,000 Americans are homeless on any day.
The editorial addressed the statistics released by the CDC last week showing that young black men who are gay or bisexual have an annual HIV infection rate of nearly 15 percent, "comparable to some of the hardest-hit sections of Africa." The author wrote, "I am waiting for the so-called leaders of the black community -the politicians, the heads of civil rights organizations, the preachers -to step forward and say, in thundering tones, that it's time to bring an end to the relentlessly self-destructive behavior that has wrecked so many African-American families and caused so much suffering and death." Herbert pointed to a lack of acknowledgment of the AIDS crisis within the black community. "One of the biggest obstacles to controlling the spread of the AIDS virus among young blacks is denial," he wrote. "There is still a widespread belief among blacks that AIDS is a disease primarily of gay white men. And there is the widespread belief that the disease is easily controlled, and perhaps even cured, by drugs. ...The denial runs so deep -and the stigma surrounding homosexuality is still so strong among blacks -that many black men who have sex with other men nevertheless think of themselves as heterosexual, not gay or bisexual. These men, while attempting to present a heterosexual image to the outer world, frequently engage in compulsive, high- risk sex with men while engaged in ongoing sexual relationships with one or more women. This is behavior that puts girlfriends and wives in grave danger." "A new and intense and creative effort -led by black Americans -will be required to reclaim the lives of the thousands upon thousands of young blacks succumbing to the ravages of destructive sexual behavior, drug use and (in so many of these cases) the emotional pain of self-loathing, depression and despair," he wrote. "If ever there was a need for tough love, this is it."

	30-03-2002 00:26									#54
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I never made the argument in question, but this analogy between blacks/slavery and Jews/Holocaust is not valid. One would first have to argue that the Jews that currently live in Isreal would be significantly worse off if they lived in Europe before this analogy could be made to stick. Given that Europe (at least the Western half) is very stable while Isreal has been repeatedly subject to terrorist attacks over the past half-century, I don't think that anybody can successfully make the argument that the Jews are significantly better off in Isreal than in Europe.

As DetroitDave pointed out, we're playing with speculative history here. Truly, we don't know if Jews would have been better off in Europe than in Israel. Perhaps anti-Semitism in Europe would have flared up again if Jews had not been given their own distant country. Things might have been even worse, with Christians attacking them, and no organized government to defend them.

Ultimately, my point is that to suggest blacks are better off due to slavery is nonsense. People like to say that without slavery, they'd be starving in Africa. We don't know if that's true. Maybe Africa would be prospering. Maybe they could have emigrated as equals.

The argument that blacks ought to "go back" to Africa if they want reparations is racist claptrap.

	30-03-2002 00:29									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten The presence of Jews in Israel cannot be attributed to one event, as the presence of Africans in the United States can be.

The presense of Africans in the United States can not be totally attributed to slavery, Drake. (EDIT: grammar snafu)

	30-03-2002 00:33									#57
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Cop out.

quote: Originally posted by Lancer

Did you, or did you not make that argument, Lancer?

	30-03-2002 00:35									#58
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*Cop in*

Where is the rest of it?

	30-03-2002 00:38									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer *Cop in* Where is the rest of it?

The rest of what? Your entire post? Bloody hell, it was hard enough getting all those quotes organized as it was, without having to quote everyone's entire posts.

	30-03-2002 00:38									#60
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quote: Originally posted by SultanofATL No I've never been. The reason I asked is because if you have then maybe you know something I don't. Yes, there are areas of Africa that suck. But, Africans I know have told me that many of its areas are fine. Most notably those in Middle Africa. Now where I have been is on humanitarian missions to west virginia, miiss., south georgia, louisiana, etc. Some of these places don't have plumbing. The people there don't have medical treatment. Hell, look at the death rate for the black males in the US that live in Urban area's. Look at the healthcare crisis in black communities where we die at a rate twice as high from heart disease, high blood pressure, and diabetes. Look at downtown atlanta where homeless men sleep on every corner(when we don't have some big event coming in). Look at the prisons. Hell is relative friend. Me I've got a nice little life. Ask some others and I know my argument would get seconded. Like I said before read up on something that CNN and mainstream media don't produce. Most people are better off over here. But, like anywhere else we've got our armpits too.

Sure there are areas of america that compare to africa, but overall america is a much better place to live. To try and paint africa as being just as good overall to live in as the US is ridiculous!