30-03-2002 02:58									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Caligastia, ask them if they would rather live in the US or the third world, it's as close as you'll ever get to winning this debate. A politically correct individual is not free to have their opinion swayed to a non politically correct pov. How could they ever face their more PC than thou college clique if they ever gave in to a reasoned arguement? No, they are prone to name calling as soon as anything starts going against them, so you might just as well let them be content in their little PC reality world, rather than pointlessly try to show them the error of their ways. Besides, some of them are nice people, so its best just to avoid certain subjects where they are not free to think for themselves.

Youre probably right. Im outta here!

	30-03-2002 02:59									#122
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I like how some conservatives like you, Lancer, call all people who disagree with them on issues as being incapable of free thinking for ourselves.

Quit your trolling and flaming Lancer -- I usually try not to play that game by responding to your low level.

And I just presented my latest argument -- not sure if it's a good analogy though.

But with your extreme bias, Lancer, you will keep thinking that people who disagree with you are not capable of free thinking.

Read my post and you might see why the better off here than Africa argument is not rational.

	30-03-2002 03:09									#124
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Caligastia and Lancer -- you two can quit this thread if you want to.

I just got done presenting my argument on why "better off here than Africa" argument is not rational for the argument about slavery reparations.

You two must be exiting because you cannot present a counter-argument. Oh well.

	30-03-2002 03:14									#126
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Why thank you

It's nothing to be proud of, and it certainly isn't a misguided flame or troll. You have, quite possibly, the absolute shittiest personality on this entire board. You are a selfish little *****, and have not a shred of compassion for anyone but yourself. The thoughts that you have only exist because of the good economic hand that you were dealt in life...I honestly cannot fathom how anyone could be as conceited and self centered as you, David, and your posting speaks volumes to my accusations.

	30-03-2002 03:34									#127
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orange-

quote: It's nothing to be proud of, and it certainly isn't a misguided flame or troll.

I dunno - I'd hate to have liberals saying how good I am

quote: You have, quite possibly, the absolute shittiest personality on this entire board.

Having never met me, you really don't have a ****ing clue as to what I'm like. What you mean is that you disagree with me, so instead of debating you just whine like a ***** about what an ass I am. Grow up.

quote: You are a selfish little *****, and have not a shred of compassion for anyone but yourself.

Again, untrue. I have plenty of personal compassion, but that does not extend to robbing people in order to pay for other people.

quote: The thoughts that you have only exist because of the good economic hand that you were dealt in life...

Good economic hand?? Listen up, ****-knocker...when I was 2 years old my dad left - because he got tired of being in a family, basically, he just didn't give a **** about his responsibilities. So guess what? My baby sister, mom - who had no viable college degree in terms of well-paying jobs (2 masters degrees in theological studies don't get you much) - and I ended up on our own. Fortunately, my mom's parents took us in for a while.
Good thing for me my mom is a hard-working person - unlike many people in America who are happy with a ****ing welfare check - because otherwise I doubt I'd be here today. You think I had lots of privileges when I was growing up? Huh? Guess what - I ****ing well didn't. Fortunately, though, I am ALSO hard-working enough to get a job for myself as soon as I was old enough, to help pay for things like my computer, and MY ****ING COLLEGE!
Good economic hand? **** you. My political beliefs are such as they are because of my attitudes toward what is right and wrong, and self-reliance. So in a way I guess they are related to my economic hand, just not in the way you think.

quote: I honestly cannot fathom how anyone could be as conceited and self centered as you, David, and your posting speaks volumes to my accusations.

I think I'm due a ****ING APOLOGY - and if you disagree, it speaks volumes about YOU - since when do I go around flaming people, attacking them personally? Answer: Never, except in cases like this where someone else starts it.

Now stop acting like a little ****, and act like an adult.

Now, orange, if you edit yours out I'll edit mine, and I'll forget about it - no harm, no foul.

	30-03-2002 03:50									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Well, it's my own fault for engaging in them. You're right, I'd like to bring this back on point, if at all possible. There are still several people who have yet to respond at all, and a few who have decided to merely debate the technicalities.

Well, it's my turn to respond.

1. I never said blacks ought to be thankful for slavery. Did I?

You are putting words into my mouth.

I did quote a comedian, who, in case you don't know, is BLACK.

Are you saying that the fact that I am not black means I can't even quote a black comedian?

If that is your belief, I feel sorry for you.

2. Are black people better off here than in Africa?

Um.....yeah.

Did I say that they should be thankful?

No I did not.

I'm very open to the possibility, just show me how it is going to work. YOU, GUYNEMER, can't even do that.

Iam offended at your accusation.

	30-03-2002 04:03									#129
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What I dislike the most in Afroamericans
is that some think it's all European/White American fault and convert to islam.
Not that I have anything against it (really)
but it's so dumb. Who sold them? Their black fellows or their were caught by Moslem slavers...

	30-03-2002 04:07									#130
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Just because there were African rulers and states that actively participated in the slave trade does not mean that we should not seriously consider slavery reparations.

I'm not participating with posts that try to continue the "better off here than Africa" argument -- I explained why I think it is not relevant, nor rational.

I will continue to participate with other arguments that are more legitimate though.

	30-03-2002 04:08									#131
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I'm sorry Tuberski. I overplayed my hand in your instance.

However, the fact remains that you stated a few times that blacks are better off because of it. I've refuted that several times in this thread. Do you agree? Are Jews better off because of the Holocaust?

	30-03-2002 04:17									#132
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Having never met me, you really don't have a ****ing clue as to what I'm like. What you mean is that you disagree with me, so instead of debating you just whine like a ***** about what an ass I am. Grow up.

I haven't met anyone on this message board, but I can still make character judgements about what you post. I disagree with people, people who have similar views as you, it's the way that you say it that pisses me off to no end.

quote: Again, untrue. I have plenty of personal compassion, but that does not extend to robbing people in order to pay for other people.

Without government intervention, you would one of two people - someone being ruthlessly taken advantage of, or someone ruthlessly taking advantage of others. But this isn't about your liberalist pacifistic idealism, this is about how everything you say colors you as a indescribably selfish prat.

quote: Good economic hand?? Listen up, ****-knocker...when I was 2 years old my dad left - because he got tired of being in a family, basically, he just didn't give a **** about his responsibilities. So guess what? My baby sister, mom - who had no viable college degree in terms of well-paying jobs (2 masters degrees in theological studies don't get you much) - and I ended up on our own. Fortunately, my mom's parents took us in for a while. Good thing for me my mom is a hard-working person - unlike many people in America who are happy with a ****ing welfare check - because otherwise I doubt I'd be here today. You think I had lots of privileges when I was growing up? Huh? Guess what - I ****ing well didn't. Fortunately, though, I am ALSO hard-working enough to get a job for myself as soon as I was old enough, to help pay for things like my computer, and MY ****ING COLLEGE! Good economic hand? **** you. My political beliefs are such as they are because of my attitudes toward what is right and wrong, and self-reliance. So in a way I guess they are related to my economic hand, just not in the way you think.

And after you vent all that backed up anger, you still can't change the fact that you were dealt a fantastic hand in life, compared to the other 280 million in this country, and moreso, the other 6 billion people in this world. You sit atop the peak of living standards and you spit down at those below you. It's not about your ideals, it's about some misunderstanding that the Robin Hood government take the well earned money you have in the back pocket of your dockers after, "against all odds", you managed to pick and claw your way up from the depths of hell to the ledge upon which you sit, when the reality is that you climbed but an inch, while others wallow in the dispair of poverty, starvation, and exploitation. And when the government comes to you to borrow a tool or two to help those people who are less fortune than you, you scream in outrage that what you've 'worked so hard for' is being 'stolen from you'. If there's anyone on this board who needs to grow up, it's you. Ideals are one thing, what you are being is a self-righteous *****. And you'll get no apology from me after you make statements like the ones you make.

Good day.

	30-03-2002 04:29									#133
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White Elephants-
quote:

I believe it was Mohammed Ali who said, "I'm glad my grand daddy got on the boat", or something to that effect.


I'm not going to bother and read the upteenth pages of this thread, but I'd like a chance to say that me quoting Mohammed Ali hardly constitutes an arguement for pro-slavery. I thought we needed a different perspective on the topic and simply quoted a prominent non-european black. Perhaps you should be chastizing Mohammed Ali for thinking the way he did and not me, eh?

	30-03-2002 04:34									#134
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants White Elephants- quote: I believe it was Mohammed Ali who said, "I'm glad my grand daddy got on the boat", or something to that effect. I'm not going to bother and read the upteenth pages of this thread, but I'd like a chance to say that me quoting Mohammed Ali hardly constitutes an arguement for pro-slavery. I thought we needed a different perspective on the topic and simply quoted a prominent non-european black. Perhaps you should be chastizing Mohammed Ali for thinking the way he did and not me, eh?

Don't bother with reading the umpteen pages... definitely not worth it.

I'm not saying it was a pro-slavery argument. Obviously, no one is pro-slavery. All I was stating was that the fact you used that quote indicates that you think blacks should be grateful for slavery. If so, should Jews be thankful for the Holocaust?

I'm not trying to chastize. Defend it; you'll be showing bravery and forthrightness. Retract it; you'll be showing maturity and a willingness to acknowledge your own faults.

	30-03-2002 04:46									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I'm sorry Tuberski. I overplayed my hand in your instance. However, the fact remains that you stated a few times that blacks are better off because of it. I've refuted that several times in this thread. Do you agree? Are Jews better off because of the Holocaust?

First off slavery isn't mass murder, it's exploitation.
Second, while slavery is wrong, one of the secondary effects of it was that their descendants live in this wonderful country where two people can disagree. Should reparations be made? Sure, but by who?

Let me give you a little hint the 3 companies are just the tip of the iceberg.

Did you know that a lot of slaves, upon being freed and having no last name took the last name of their owners?

This is slightly a joke , but as soon as I meet ANY black person descended from slaves with my last name, I'll gladly give him a share of what I have.

Of course my last name isn't Johnson or Smith, so I doubt there will be any.

	30-03-2002 05:07									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski First off slavery isn't mass murder, it's exploitation.

I never said it was. However, it is estimated that around a million slaves (at least) died in transit across the Atlantic.

Besides, that's not the point. That was a pretty decent evasion, though.

	30-03-2002 05:12									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I'm not saying it was a pro-slavery argument. Obviously, no one is pro-slavery. All I was stating was that the fact you used that quote indicates that you think blacks should be grateful for slavery. If so, should Jews be thankful for the Holocaust?

Its not so much that blacks should be "grateful" for slavery. That's hardly the case. I think any race should be grateful they're here (among many other nations) and not in Africa just as the Jews should be thankful they were granted the right to self-govern, though by no means should they be grateful for the Holocaust. Apparently Ali, being black, was grateful his grandfather got "on the boat", though no where in that statement is Ali implying he is grateful for slavery. Does the end justify the means? I don't know, that's debateable. I'm not even sure anymore how this was brought up in the context of the original arguement of whether or not the ancestors of slaves should receive reparations? I'll have to review the old arguement. Ugghh...

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I'm not trying to chastize. Defend it; you'll be showing bravery and forthrightness. Retract it; you'll be showing maturity and a willingness to acknowledge your own faults.

Whoa little doggy! Your riding a horse a might bit too high for your britches, no? You do realize you've lead quite an overzealous witch hunt, no? Let me know when the burnings at the stake will take place, ok? And try not to schedule them during my lunch break. Thanks.

	30-03-2002 05:25									#138
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteElephants Its not so much that blacks should be "grateful" for slavery. That's hardly the case. I think any race should be grateful they're here (among many other nations) and not in Africa just as the Jews should be thankful they were granted the right to self-govern, though by no means should they be grateful for the Holocaust. Apparently Ali, being black, was grateful his grandfather got "on the boat", though no where in that statement is Ali implying he is grateful for slavery. Does the end justify the means? I don't know, that's debateable. I'm not even sure anymore how this was brought up in the context of the original arguement of whether or not the ancestors of slaves should receive reparations? I'll have to review the old arguement. Ugghh...

That's a fair explanation. Thank you.

quote: Whoa little doggy! Your riding a horse a might bit too high for your britches, no? You do realize you've lead quite an overzealous witch hunt, no? Let me know when the burnings at the stake will take place, ok? And try not to schedule them during my lunch break. Thanks.

I'm not trying to lead a witch hunt. Ultimately, I'm trying to make people think critically about the argument that slavery is somehow justified by the fact that slave's descendants are now American.

	30-03-2002 05:34									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I never said it was. However, it is estimated that around a million slaves (at least) died in transit across the Atlantic. Besides, that's not the point. That was a pretty decent evasion, though.

Okay, try this the Holocaust was much worse than slavery.

How, Six million people lost the ability to procreate, slavery did not deny people the right to procreate. Hows that?

But again it's like comparing strawberries and bananas, they are both injustices, they just do not compare favorably to each other.

EDIT: No the Jews are not better off because of the Holocaust.
If you read my statement that should be self explanatory.

If you want to ask another question make it a yes/no or true false that way there will be now evasion.

	30-03-2002 05:39									#140
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Upon further review of this entire thread and the previous thread the WhiteElephants committee of one has deemed this yet another polictically correct witch hunt gone awry. The Surgeon General warns that further reading and/or posting to this thread may result in excessive feelings of guilt for having been born caucasian and as a result an overzealous-swarmy-eco-hugging-do-gooder demeanor.

	30-03-2002 05:39									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski But again it's like comparing strawberries and bananas, they are both injustices, they just do not compare favorably to each other.

Are you insinuating that the might banana and his arch-rival strawberry are injustices?!

You, my friend, will be the first with your back against the wall when the revolution comes!

*This threadjacking has been brought to you by The Emperor Fabulous (tm). Thank you, and you will now be returned to your regularly schedualed bantering*

	30-03-2002 06:06									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Okay, try this the Holocaust was much worse than slavery. How, Six million people lost the ability to procreate, slavery did not deny people the right to procreate. Hows that?

Excepting, of course, the million who died in transit...

quote: EDIT: No the Jews are not better off because of the Holocaust. If you read my statement that should be self explanatory. If you want to ask another question make it a yes/no or true false that way there will be now evasion.

So if the Jews aren't better off because of the Holocaust, then the blacks aren't better off because of slavery. Mmmkay? Or do you still disagree?

WE--If you're really that overly-sensitive about this sort of thing, fine. But please don't put your hang-ups on me. I must admit, though, that was pretty damned funny.

That last bit goes for you too, Emperor.

	30-03-2002 06:09									#143
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Are you insinuating that the might banana and his arch-rival strawberry are injustices?! You, my friend, will be the first with your back against the wall when the revolution comes! *This threadjacking has been brought to you by The Emperor Fabulous (tm). Thank you, and you will now be returned to your regularly schedualed bantering*

So sorry.

	30-03-2002 06:21									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Excepting, of course, the million who died in transit... So if the Jews aren't better off because of the Holocaust, then the blacks aren't better off because of slavery. Mmmkay? Or do you still disagree?

AGAIN, not the same thing! I never brought up the Jews. And this seems like one of those arguements you were railing against yesterday.

The Jews weren't relocated, they were exterminated. Okay I'll grant you your " one million died in transit".

Blacks aren't better off because of slavery, they are better off because of the relocation that happened to coincide with the slavery. Mmmkay?

	30-03-2002 06:28									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Blacks aren't better off because of slavery, they are better off because of the relocation that happened to coincide with the slavery. Mmmkay?

That still sounds a little wishy-washy, but I know what you're trying to get across. However, if David Floyd typed this exact same thing, I'd interpret it completely differently.

	30-03-2002 06:36									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer That still sounds a little wishy-washy, but I know what you're trying to get across. However, if David Floyd typed this exact same thing, I'd interpret it completely differently.

Well, thank god I'm not him. Because he never would have made that arguement. He would have said they were better off because of slavery and left it at that.

	30-03-2002 06:38									#147
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quote: Blacks aren't better off because of slavery, they are better off because of the relocation that happened to coincide with the slavery.

I think this really says it best

I'm not trying to justify slavery OR justify not giving them slavery reparations by saying that they're better off, but it is foolish to ignore the fact that they are.

	30-03-2002 06:53									#148
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quote: Originally posted by orange I'm not trying to justify slavery OR justify not giving them slavery reparations by saying that they're better off, but it is foolish to ignore the fact that they are.

The problem is, better off compared to what? People in Africa today? Yes. Other people in American today? No. And what if slavery had never happened? Are blacks better off compared to how they would be if slavery had never happened, and had immigrated as most other ethnic groups have? No.

That's the point I've tried to make... obviously not very successfully. Slavery has been a net negative, not a net positive.

	30-03-2002 06:59									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer The problem is, better off compared to what? People in Africa today? Yes. Other people in American today? No. And what if slavery had never happened? Are blacks better off compared to how they would be if slavery had never happened, and had immigrated as most other ethnic groups have? No. That's the point I've tried to make... obviously not very successfully. Slavery has been a net negative, not a net positive.

I would agree it is a NET negative, But to say nothing is positve is incorrect.

Your arguement is based on supposition.

I can not even decide on your supposition.

Because it didn't happen.

	30-03-2002 07:02									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski I would agree it is a NET negative, But to say nothing is positve is incorrect. Your arguement is based on supposition. I can not even decide on your supposition. Because it didn't happen.

Well, the argument "Without slavery, they'd still be in Africa" is a supposition too, strictly speaking.

I know. I'm a right bastard sometimes.

But if it's a net negative, there's nothing to be thankful for.