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Drake Tungsten
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Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:18
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Well, I read the post again and still can't find where you made a distinction between "Americans" as a whole and "Americans who support historical acts of questionable morality". Maybe you can help me out.
Sikander originally replied to this quote,
quote:
Felch: We are saying it is hypocritical for Americans to condemn Palestinian suicide bombings in light of our history. |
by saying this,
quote:
You act as though we are not individuals but simply cells of the organism of state. Americans are not allowed to criticize violence (or more accurately to be taken seriously when they do) whatever their opinion was about their own history simply because they are Americans. |
to which you replied by saying,
quote:
Exactly... they shouldn't be taken seriously, because they support things we've done in our history that have been just as bad, if not worse than what the Pals are doing (the atomic bomb being dropped comes to mind). |
It seems to me that you were saying that Americans as a whole support the past actions of our nation and are therefore not able to criticize Pals without being hypocrites. You've backpedaled since then, now claiming that " since a vast majority of Americans support the killing of civilians as done by Americans at some point in our history, then yes, a vast majority of Americans can't claim moral horror at Palestine." I don't want to be a *****, but if you are going to claim that I can't follow an argument, you might want to go back and make sure that your argument was clear in the first place. You can't refer to "Americans" and expect others to know that you meant "Americans who support past injustices". I apologize if I didn't understand your argument completely, but the misunderstanding is certainly not a result of my reading skills.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
Are you serious? Using that logic, no one in the world is able to criticize anything anyone else does. |
I'm getting tired of you totally missing the point of what I write. Perhaps you should read it again.
IF you support American killing of civilians in atomic bomb drops and Dresdan, THEN you have no right to critique the Pals for their bombings.
People can critique other people on morality if they do not support the horrible things their countries have done in the past.
Oh, and for the record, I do support the Atomic bomb blasts. |
The US dropped bombs on cities which contained munitions factories and armed forces. That includes Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden. The discussion of suicide bombings is not of attacks by Palestinians on Israeli soldiers that happen to kill civilians. It is of attacks in shopping malls, hotels, where there are only civilians.
BTW, Imran, your friend, Pres. Bush has made it clear that these bombings are terrorism, and are unacceptable.
LOTM
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
I see. Dropping a bomb on a strategic bridge or power plant is equivalent to deliberate murder of civilians. This is also the argument of Nazi apologists. It is not international law.
LOTM |
You are an idiot and an apologist for murder. If the murder is committed by Americans, you will twist and turn so that you can pretend it is legitmate. If the killing is committed by an occupied people, who ahve a legal right to wage an armed struggle aginst their occupiers, you will twist and turn so that it can only be cold-blooded murder.
Dropping a bomb on a bridge, and let's drop this strategic BS, because they didn't just bomb the bridges going into Kosovo or Kuwait, but every frikkan bridge in the country, is murderous. Hospitals and people frequently reside on different sides of rivers. Destroy the bridge, and you condemn injured people to death. It also disrupts the econmy, which causes people to die. Setting in motion the events that you know will cause someone's death is called 2nd degree murder in most of the United States.
In any event, the war on Yugoslavia was totally illegal. Any deaths arising out of an illegal war would therefore be murder.
Furthermore, dumbsh*t, the deliberate targetting of civilian infrasstructure IS against international law. Stop talking out of your *ss.
If this post seems harsh, it's because I got tired of people being deliberately obtuse while attempting to put words in my mouth.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You are an idiot and an apologist for murder. If the murder is committed by Americans, you will twist and turn so that you can pretend it is legitmate. If the killing is committed by an occupied people, who ahve a legal right to wage an armed struggle aginst their occupiers, you will twist and turn so that it can only be cold-blooded murder.
Dropping a bomb on a bridge, and let's drop this strategic BS, because they didn't just bomb the bridges going into Kosovo or Kuwait, but every frikkan bridge in the country, is murderous. Hospitals and people frequently reside on different sides of rivers. Destroy the bridge, and you condemn injured people to death. It also disrupts the econmy, which causes people to die.
LOTM - So boycotting a country is also murder?? Gandhi was a murderer of Lancashire textile workers? No. Bombing a bridge is bombing a bridge. What matters is intent. If you are doing it with intent to stop the flow of military traffic, or economic traffic that supports war, and you do not intend to kill civilians, it is not murder. Just as causing economic disruption is not murder.
Deliberately killing civilians is murder. My countrymen HAVE committed such murder - at My Lai, and at Wounded Knee, both to our everlasting shame. But not in Yugoslavia.
Furthermore, dumbsh*t, the deliberate targetting of civilian infrasstructure IS against international law. Stop talking out of your *ss.
LOTM - citations please.
If this post seems harsh, it's because I got tired of people being deliberately obtuse while attempting to put words in my mouth.
LOTM - I put no words in your mouth, and i am damned tired of people making excuses for intentional murder, and confusing it with unintended deaths in war they dislike.
I also think you are an idiot for using a yiddish word that is a derogotory word for gentile - a word I DONT use because of its derogatory connotations- as your nickname here - I dont know what you are trying to prove by it - that some jews are racist? It gives me the constant impression that you are obsessed with Jews, and filled with hate for them.
LOTM
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Which governor are you talking about? I always thought that the only to State to which the KKK rose to such heights in that time period was in Indiana. |
Sorry, I meant Klan supported, not an actual member.
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Gatekeeper
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United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Where did I ever say anyone deserved it? Please, go back and find where I said this was a good thing? I triple dog dare you. |
My pleasure, Chegitz. Here we go:
DanS wrote:
quote:
While I do believe that Israel's occupation has led (mostly) to what we have now, attacking innocents knowing full well that they are innocents is beyond the pale. Israel is within her rights to defend herself. |
Chegitz replied:
quote:
In any war, you attack an enemy at his weak point. The IDF is far too strong to be combatted directly, so the only option left is to take the war to its supporters. It is completely hypocritical for Americans to decry the horrors of suicide bombers while it was applauding the complete destruction of the civilian infrastructures of Iraq and Yugoslavia. Feh! A suicide bobmer has nothing on American death from the skies. |
I replied to Chegitz:
quote:
POPPYCOCK! You automatically *assume* that those civilians slaughtered by terrorist suicide bombers back all of Israel's actions?! |
Most interesting words, Chegitz. Particularly "... so the only option left is to take the war to its supporters. ..."
Now let's see here. DanS was talking roughly along the lines of terrorists knowingly targeting innocents, how that went beyond the pale and how Israel has a right to defend itself. You came in and disagreed, Chegitz, saying that in any war you target your enemy's weak point. You spoke of how the IDF was too strong to take on directly, so the terrorists' only option was to "take the war to its supporters." It isn't much of a stretch to imagine that the "supporters" you were referring to were the innocent civilians blown apart by suicide bombers. Furthermore, considering the context of all the above — namely, the deliberate targeting of innocents — it was quite natural (and correct, I might add) to call attention to your post. Nor was I the only contributor on this thread to call attention to it.
You were saying something about triple dog dare, Chegitz?
quote:
Hospitals were bombed in Iraq. The water treatment facilities were bombed in Iraq. Strategic bridges in Yugoslavia would be what? . . . every bridge in the country. Chemical factories on the Danube were destroyed, spilling their contents into the major water supply for millions and millions of people, and not just for Yugoslavia. TV stations were bombed . . . unless they were anti-Milosevic. Government offices were bombed, which, like the Murrah building in Oklahoma City, had more than just government offices. |
War sucks, doesn't it?
I have noticed over and over again how so much blame is laid at the feet of the United States, NATO, or any number of nations who choose to side with America in any of the given conflicts above in any number of topics on the 'Poly OT over the years. Yet the likes of Slobodan Milosevic and Saddam Hussein are regularly allowed to get away with murder. Why is that? Is it because Western governments are easier to criticize (YES) and less likely to put a bullet in the back of your head once a spiel has been finished (YES)?
Western governments are far from being as pure as the driven snow. But I submit to you that you're safer criticizing them any day of the week — and more likely to get results — than you are with the likes of Iraq and whatnot. But the criticial eye can only be willfully closed for so long in regards to these less-than-democratic governments.
quote:
Perhaps next time you should engage your brain before typing, idiot. In every single one of your responses to someone elses post, you have completely missed the point and gone balastic off on some tangent. |
Hardly, Commie-boy. You basically backed the targeting of innocent civilians by terrorists if their goverment's military is too hard to tangle with directly. Imran came in and backed you up and I responded to that. Then Imran went on about the media — admittedly, perhaps half jokingly in hindsight — and I responded to what I thought were serious allegations about the profession I happen to be a part of between 8 and 10 hours a day, five days a week.
If that's called going "balastic," in your book, Chegitz, count me as more than happy to bear that title in your eyes.
Good day, Chegitz.
Gatekeeper
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:18
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Paiktis,
Mississippi Burning is only loosely based on actual US history. It is itself, part of that other shameful tradition we have, South bashing. This isn't to say that horrible stuff didn't happen in the South, cuz it did. You should also consider that not everyone in the South agreed with Jim Crow and that in some ways, the South has gone a lot farther in dealing with it's legacy of racism than the North has done. One example, I see far, far more interracial couples here in Jacksonville than I ever saw in the North, however; that may also be because Jacksonville is a major military center, and the military is the most integrated part of American society. |
Che,
Great post, everything you say here is true from my experience as well. My mother's family is from the south and have always been humble and open minded about people of every ethnicity. I grew up in Asia in a place where there was a significant U.S. military presence. Many of my friends were Army brats, and my neighborhood play group consisted of Japanese, Filipinos, White Hispanic and African Americans, Chinese, and quite a few mixed race kids. There was some tension between the locals and foreigners, but that was it. I was shocked by the racism I saw when my family moved from military society to the industrial midwest.
Mississippi Burning was about what was perhaps the most dangerous state in the U.S. with respect to the clan, and included just about every famous act of violence of the period and a good deal of other stuff like it was just every day activity. A lot of movies excagerate to make them more interesting, but this flick was way too much. Not surprisingly it was made by a Brit. The Brits always get the South wrong. Amusingly, the South is the most British part of the U.S., so I assume that some of the hostility is in fact typical liberal self-loathing.
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Jack_www
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Both sides are to blame for the growing conflict between Isreal and the pal. The pla send sucide bombers in to Isreal, then Isreal invades the lands of pal and starts to look for terriorts, at least that is what they say. Then the pal seek revenge and attack again, and it goes on and on and on and on. Many people on both sides hate each other. Both claim that the land is rightfully theirs for religous reason as well. Imagine if everyone in the world put aside their differences, realizing that in all reallty their is only one race, the human one, and loved one anther as they would love themselves. There would be peace all over the world, including the middle east.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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MacTBone, it's part of international law. A colonized or occupied population has a legal right to wage war on it's occupier, under some UN convention, going wayyyy back. It's why the FLN terrorists in the US who got caught back in the early 80s refused to accept the legitamacy of the court, since they claimed they were prisoners of war, because Puerto Rico is an occupied colony. What differentiates the FLN and say Hamas, is that the FLN only targeted "legal" targets (under international law) and phoned in to warn people that there was a bomb.
Oh, and Gatekeeper, you still have failed to find where I said it was a good thing. What I wrote was that is how it is, not that it was good. Get your head out of your *ss when reading.
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Gatekeeper
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United States of America
Feb 2000
time: 23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Oh, and Gatekeeper, you still have failed to find where I said it was a good thing. What I wrote was that is how it is, not that it was good. Get your head out of your *ss when reading. |
Where did I say I thought you thought it was a good thing that terrorists were targeting civilians? I was pointing out — again and again, I might add — how you basically backed the murder of civilians by terrorists when the protecting military force was too strong to take on. And how that incensed me.
You're the one, Chegitz, who brought up the whole "you still have failed to find where I said it was a good thing" tangent. Not me. I don't have any obligation to find something that doesn't exist. In fact, I think it's high time you played the "let's dig up what someone else said on a huge, massive thread" game. Where did *I* say what you contend I'm saying? As far as I know, I was simply responding to what you said to DanS' post.
I see you're now trying to paint it as "that's how things are." If that's the case, then I guess civilians are simply sh*t out of luck when a terrorist thinks they're the weak point of an enemy that's being fought, eh? So no matter *who* takes out the civilians, the attackers must be justified in some shape or form.
Pull my head out of my ass, Chegitz? Only when you wash your mouth out with soap, child.
Gatekeeper
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04-04-2002 03:13
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