03-04-2002 13:25									#151
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In any war, you attack an enemy at his weak point. The IDF is far too strong to be combatted directly, so the only option left is to take the war to its supporters.

POPPYCOCK! You automatically *assume* that those civilians slaughtered by terrorist suicide bombers back all of Israel's actions?!

Such hubris, Chegitz!

I guess that means the 3000 or so people slaughtered on Sept. 11, 2001 were supporters of the U.S. government's policies overseas and, thus, deserved to die 'cause poor jackass baby Osama **** HEAD Laden didn't have enough balls to try and take out another U.S. military target. Oh, wait, he DID! He took out part of the Pentagon with an airliner filled with ... you guessed it! Supporters of America's evil foreign policies! (Translation: civilians.)

Has it ever crossed your mind, Chegitz (and all you other folks that have similar thoughts) that maybe, just maybe, some of those cold-blooded vampires worthy of death by fire, er, civilians, may have been supportive to one degree or another of the agendas — albeit w/o the violence — of those who killed them? That maybe they wanted peace in the Middle East? That maybe they contributed dollars to aid groups in Israel, Afghanistan and Palestine?

All for naught! They're dead! Killed at the hands of those jackasses who deliberately targeted them because, woes them, they couldn't take on the IDF or America's horrible "fire from the sky" air force.

DanS' post was spot on. Yours sounds ... hmm ... cold-blooded Stalinish?

quote: It is completely hypocritical for Americans to decry the horrors of suicide bombers while it was applauding the complete destruction of the civilian infrastructures of Iraq and Yugoslavia. Feh! A suicide bobmer has nothing on American death from the skies.

Yeah, you read me right, Commie-boy. I just dance and sing whenever our armed forces go into action. Oh, sorry for the stereotyping. I'm just mimicking you. Higher thought with you in this particular case isn't worth burning calories on.

So just what is your definition of a civilian structure, Chegitz? Must be a missile battery in the case of Iraq, right? A strategic bridge for the former Yugoslavia? Whoops, I lied. I had to waste a few calories to ask you those questions, Chegitz. My apologies, son. As you were!

Gatekeeper

	03-04-2002 13:32									#152
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quote: POPPYCOCK! You automatically *assume* that those civilians slaughtered by terrorist suicide bombers back all of Israel's actions?!

Perhaps not, but plenty of them do. Best way to strike at the Israeli government and infrastructure is to go for the people. It gets more shock value than just picking off soldiers.

	03-04-2002 13:32									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse No, f*ck you then

	03-04-2002 13:34									#154
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They don't take it in the US. While Chris claims that the US media is ignoring the attacks in Jewish temples and Jews in Europe, I've seen and heard far more news about that then about the executed Palestinian policemen or the dead priest. You cannot get reliable news about what Israel is doing in the American media, only about what the Palestinians have done. It paints an exceedingly one sided picture. There are a number of reasons why this is so, which I shan't go into, but it's not because of Jewish control of the media.

**ROTFLMAO** Hey, is this the same American media that the Israeli government is threatening to kick out of Ramallah because we're not following IDF military rules regarding censorship?!

Hey, is this the same American media where one of our reporters got shot through the shoulder by an Israeli military unit?

Yeah, we love Israel so much that we deliberately paint a one-sided picture just so folks like you, Chegitz, can sit behind your computer and spout about how dreadfully one-sided we are.

**blam!!**

GODDANG IT! Stop shooting at us, Israel! See our press passes? SHEESH!!! I tell ya! Whelp, time to sit down and write that Israeli propaganda piece that Mr. Sharon wants in an hour!

Gatekeeper

	03-04-2002 13:39									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: POPPYCOCK! You automatically *assume* that those civilians slaughtered by terrorist suicide bombers back all of Israel's actions?! Perhaps not, but plenty of them do. Best way to strike at the Israeli government and infrastructure is to go for the people. It gets more shock value than just picking off soldiers.

**stunned** I have no words, Imran. None whatsoever.

OK, I fibbed (again ... damn calories). If I ever hear you speak in sympathy of the victims of Sept. 11, 2001 after this point in time, I will think of nothing but crocodile tears ...

Gatekeeper

	03-04-2002 13:42									#156
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Because of course the world is black and white

Get a clue... things are more complex than your world of 2 colors. I don't seem to think Bin Laden was oppressed by America. I don't remember us taking his land, or threatening his water supply.

	03-04-2002 13:45									#157
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As an Israel basher IŽm bound to make an appearance

Horsie and Imran are spot on, I hold the exact same opinion (which I have stated in numerous threads).

Israel has created the situation which they now face.

	03-04-2002 13:47									#158
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And Gatekeeper, if you DON'T think the US media is blatently pro-Israel, you really aren't paying attention. Check out the American media v. European media or any other free media in the world.

	03-04-2002 13:53									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Ti uzhe poluchaish palestinskuyu versyu, eti saiti boleye blizki kpravde

Spasibo za ssylki. Kstati, ya nastroen vovse ne protiv Izrailya, a skoree naoborot.

quote: Kstati, gde ti priatalsia do sikh por? Ya znayu malo rusko govoryachikh zdes. Pochti vsye - tozhe izrailtanye.

Ya tut oshivayus' davno. Odnako ya v osnovnom chitayu i redko pishu.

	03-04-2002 13:55									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Or lord... if our newspapers weren't a laughing stock already, all they need is poetry .

Well, I understand that the state- and religious-sponsored "news"papers — especially those in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon — are chock full of reliable information. Why, just a few weeks ago I hear there was a piece regarding how Jews need the blood of non-Jews (preferably children, right) to make some sort of food? Do you want a subscription, Imran? I'm just *positive* they can carry real news better than any mainstream American paper, right?

**blam**

GODDANG IT, ISRAEL!!!! **waves press pass** Hey, this ain't a gun, guys! Stop shooting at me!

Gatekeeper

	03-04-2002 13:58									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Because of course the world is black and white Get a clue... things are more complex than your world of 2 colors. I don't seem to think Bin Laden was oppressed by America. I don't remember us taking his land, or threatening his water supply.

You wouldn't believe the shades of gray in *my* world, Imran. There's a lot of them and, sorry to say, it doesn't make life's decisions any simpler.

Gatekeeper

	03-04-2002 14:06									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui And Gatekeeper, if you DON'T think the US media is blatently pro-Israel, you really aren't paying attention. Check out the American media v. European media or any other free media in the world.

Imran, you're talking to one of the people who gets the stories directly from our frontline people on the ground across the world's hot spots. Hard news, Imran, not that stuff you and some others seem to equate as representative of the media: op-ed.

Hard news is that stuff generally found on the pages other than op-ed, Imran. Also, TV programs such as "Crossfire," "The Point" and Bill O'Reilly generally aren't considered founts of "hard news," Imran, as they're op-ed and mean to piss some people off while turning others into zombies (Limbaugh comes to mind here). Hard news — where *I* work, along with about 96 percent of the media types you never see on-screen (trenches, ya know) — is the unglamorous stuff because it's "the facts only, ma'am." Unfortunately, some folks seem to think the op-ed pages and TV shows represent the media and everyone in the profession.

They DO NOT. So when I speak of the work I do, it's most certainly not from the viewpoint of an op-ed guy. The news, hell the only news I work with, is the hard stuff.

So if the U.S. media is "blatently pro-Israel," you'll have to take that up with the "lords" of the profession, not me. I'm still in the trenches, putting out and arranging that unglamorous "facts only" copy that comes in direct from the hotspots. So I do pay attention, Imran, to the 96 percent of the media that affects me: hard news.

Gatekeeper

	03-04-2002 14:13									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Roland is correct. It is Russian in nature... at least in print.

"In nature"? Watch it, Imran.

	03-04-2002 14:14									#164
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In any war, you attack an enemy at his weak point. The IDF is far too strong to be combatted directly, so the only option left is to take the war to its supporters. It is completely hypocritical for Americans to decry the horrors of suicide bombers while it was applauding the complete destruction of the civilian infrastructures of Iraq and Yugoslavia. Feh! A suicide bobmer has nothing on American death from the skies.

You go to far here. I don't remember anyone applauding the destruction of Iraqi civilian infrastructure, the government was too smart to highlight that part of the air campaign. I was against the entire strategic bombing campaign because it wasn't necessary. What was necessary and wasn't done was finishing off Saddam and occupying Iraq. Multilateralism sucks when you are yoked to Arabs who want you to fail.

I don't remember any cheering about anything during the bombing in Yugoslavia with the possible exception of some ironic chuckling when the Chinese embassy got hit. You missed the best example of American bloodthirstiness which was the strategic bombing campaign in WWII. Of course you can't use that to tar the present generation of Americans.

I am a believer in the concept of going as far as your opponent is willing to if necessary. If the Pals are targeting civilians, then they have no right to squeal when the Israelis change their emphasis and do the same. Of course they already squeal and claim that there is a genocide going on, which weakens their future case significantly if they end up with the real deal.

	03-04-2002 14:16									#165
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quote: I'm just *positive* they can carry real news better than any mainstream American paper, right?

You know there is this big continent... yah.. meet Europe.. and over here... yes, that's Australia.

quote: Imran, you're talking to one of the people who gets the stories directly from our frontline people on the ground across the world's hot spots. Hard news, Imran, not that stuff you and some others seem to equate as representative of the media: op-ed.

I'm talking headlines and stories on the front page (and beyond). They ain't op-ed, and they definetly back Israel more than any other Western source I've seen.

I hardly read op-ed, buddy. I'm commenting on the regular news with the subtle bias. The pro-Israel bias is very obvious to posters from Europe or Aussie-land (and I mean NON-OP-ED).

	03-04-2002 14:19									#166
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond "In nature"? Watch it, Imran.

Well, that is where it came from...

	03-04-2002 14:19									#167
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"Hard news is that stuff generally found on the pages other than op-ed... "

And there is still plenty of room for manipulation through selection, presentation and context.

But I don't think most US media are so much biased rather than just crap.

Just have to look at the CNN frontpage:

"SECTION HIGHLIGHTS:
POLITICS: Stripper-turned-mayor faces recall"

???
Has to be THE burning issue in "politics", which supposedly means "US domestic politics" ?

	03-04-2002 14:22									#168
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--

Be back on subject.

Actually we have no information about who did those destructions.

You will not find no newspaper (I mean serious ones) which try to justify such acts. If they want to protest against Israel they can go in Ramala and protests against soldiers or they can go in street and organize a demonstration.

We cannot actually say if such act are planned, organised by only one group or several independent groups, we don't know too what is the real purpose of such attacks :
- protestation against Israel (stupid & useless).
- pure anti-semitism.
- a plan to fire hatred between Arab 'community' and Jews ?

I fear many more attacks against Jews shrines have to be expected. Personnaly I suspect extrem-right movement (anti-Arabs and some anti-semits) to have started the acts of destructions. They don't care about Israel, but they want to increase ciolance in street to promote their fascist policy.

Some evidences are here :

Such acts occured in conjonction with the suddent raise of conflict in Palestin and the starting of our Presidential campaign. This is not a pure chance.

They were already involved in the past in "false" arabs terrorist acts (by putting true bombs in Paris). And promoting fear is always the natural job of fascist groups.

	03-04-2002 14:23									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Felch: We are saying it is hypocritical for Americans to condemn Palestinian suicide bombings in light of our history.

An astoundingly ignorant concept. I hit my little brother when I was a kid, I suppose it's the apex of hypocrisy for me to denounce violence today.

You act as though we are not individuals but simply cells of the organism of state. Americans are not allowed to criticize violence (or more accurately to be taken seriously when they do) whatever their opinion was about their own history simply because they are Americans. This is right out of the Ethnic Studies Department, where racism is only racism when it's perpetuated by whites. What a load of manure.

	03-04-2002 14:31									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I hardly read op-ed, buddy. I'm commenting on the regular news with the subtle bias. The pro-Israel bias is very obvious to posters from Europe or Aussie-land (and I mean NON-OP-ED).

Is it an American pro-Israel bias or an American lack of a pro-Palestinian bias? And how the hell can one tell the difference? The news I see seems pretty balanced to me, but I'm sure you'll find a way to claim that I'm wrong...

	03-04-2002 14:35									#171
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quote: Americans are not allowed to criticize violence (or more accurately to be taken seriously when they do) whatever their opinion was about their own history simply because they are Americans.

Exactly... they shouldn't be taken seriously, because they support things we've done in our history that have been just as bad, if not worse than what the Pals are doing (the atomic bomb being dropped comes to mind).

	03-04-2002 14:46									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ask those that are being oppressed if it is wrong. IIRC, one of the Israelis here once posted if they were a Palestinian they'd probably sponser terrorism as well. When you are treated like dirt, it stops being wrong.

Ask the ignorant filthy child soldier who has only known deprivation, propoganda, war and hate for his opinion on what constitutes inhumanity. The answer will be either nothing or everything, neither of which helps us. We don't need the moral advice of people who are mired in a combat to the death at the lowest level of human moral / psychological / spiritual development unless that is what we aspire to as well. You sound like a liberal today Imran, and I mean that in the worst possible way.

Killing innocent people never stops being wrong. Being numb to the moral repulsiveness of the action doesn't change it's inherent evil. We don't let people walk away from murder charges because they had a bad life previously, and we can't excuse these murderers because they have been denied land that they never lived on and used by the Arab world as sacrificial lambs for the sake of Arab unity and the stability of a dozen repressive regimes. We can understand without surrendering our right to have an opinion on a matter which ultimately applies to our own right to life as well.

	03-04-2002 14:50									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Exactly... they shouldn't be taken seriously, because they support things we've done in our history that have been just as bad, if not worse than what the Pals are doing (the atomic bomb being dropped comes to mind).

Are you serious? Using that logic, no one in the world is able to criticize anything anyone else does. Every country in the world has horrible acts in its past that would preclude them from passing judgement, if we use your idiotic standard. Also, how can you hold Americans today responsible for historical acts that they have no control of? You're saying that I can't call terrorism bad because my grandfather's generation dropped the atom bomb? I know you're desperate for a way to justify Palestinian terrorism, but this is just absurd...

	03-04-2002 14:59									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I'm just *positive* they can carry real news better than any mainstream American paper, right? You know there is this big continent... yah.. meet Europe.. and over here... yes, that's Australia.

I believe the part of the world I was talking about — which you left out of my quote — was in regards to the "news"papers that are government- and religious-sponsored founts of "information" in the likes of Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and whatnot. So what's your point of including geopolitical and geographical data outside that area, Imran? You were/are whining and moaning about bias in the U.S. media ... heck, I thought I'd do you a favor and point you in the direction of the "news" coverage you must truly want since America's big, bad media are soooooo pro-Israel.

quote: quote: Imran, you're talking to one of the people who gets the stories directly from our frontline people on the ground across the world's hot spots. Hard news, Imran, not that stuff you and some others seem to equate as representative of the media: op-ed. I'm talking headlines and stories on the front page (and beyond). They ain't op-ed, and they definetly back Israel more than any other Western source I've seen.

Judging from your contributions on this thread so far, Imran, I can only take your rants and raves in regards to the media and Israel with this:

quote: I hardly read op-ed, buddy. I'm commenting on the regular news with the subtle bias. The pro-Israel bias is very obvious to posters from Europe or Aussie-land (and I mean NON-OP-ED).

Well, gee gosh golly whillikers, Imran! Just like the pro-Palestinian bias is soooo evident in European media to non-Europeans, eh? People want to see things, Imran, and they will go digging to great, great depths in order to find what they want to see. You wanted to see a pro-Israel bias in the hard news pages, Imran, well you found it! Oh, look! Jim Bob over there wants to find the pro-liberal bias in American papers! He found it! Hey! John Q. Public wanted to find the right-wing corporate control of the American media! He found it on Page A7!!!!

AUGH!!!

Gatekeeper

(P.S. Roland ... I share your curiosity in regards to the stripper mayor. That was "top news" because this is a case where "entertainment" journalists got their way and put up something that would obviously draw some interest. It's not easy to say this, but there are people out there who really don't care for world events, even if it means their son or daughter might be the next ones shipped out to some hotspot somewhere.)

	03-04-2002 17:32									#175
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Another anti-semitic attack in Antwerp. Molotovs were thrown on a Synagogue.

	03-04-2002 17:43									#176
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Please Eli, indicate to non-european reader where Antwerp is :
Belgium.

The thread concern initialy France : "French Bias attacks mount".

	03-04-2002 18:02									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I think Israeli intelligence has credence over... you.

Yeah, they are far more aware with no doubt at all.

But don't expect that any intelligence services will tell (all) the true to the people of there country, or they should no longer be called intelligent service !

	03-04-2002 20:17									#178
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I'm sorry but I was watching this movie: "Mississippi Burning" and I watched the mistreatment of the black population. Their houses burned up, theiw women raped, little children being beaten up.

And all these things were done by the organized societty there. Not by some "terrorists" or extremists.

The whole society there was KKK or even if it wasn't it had almost the same feelings as KKK.

Now I don't know what Moneypenny will say about that but if the black people revolted under this situation would you blame them?

I know I wouldn't.

So I see two things:

The blacks of Mississippi are the Palestinians of Israel. The only difference is that they are being killed and expelled in an organized manner.

And two: This incident with the jewish person being beaten up is serious and should be codnemned and should be looked into and the responsibles should be throwned to jail. But it is a secluded incident.
It is not like Mississippi where the whole society was KKK.

Now I know this was how things were before.
But IMO it is not correct to label Europe anti-semite just because of that incident.

And being against Israel's policies doesn't mean being anti-semite. It means being anti-nazi

	03-04-2002 20:33									#179
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You're trying to get me banned, aren't you paiktis?

	03-04-2002 20:39									#180
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Why are you refusing your past (and maybe present?)

By facing up to the attricities of your ancestors you free yourself.
Unless of course you're KKK too