06-04-2002 00:59									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander How come this argument never comes up elsewhere? People b1tch and moan about the Australian refusal to accept refugees from the ME, but I don't hear any of these people arguing that these people's countries should be held accountable. Apparently only democracies are responsible for refugees.

We've made those arguments for generations, actually. However, one, it's a lot easier to get a democracy to do the right thing than to get a dictatorship to do the right thing. Two, our money goes to these Western governments, so we have a right to demand action from them (for example, US taxpayers fund both the US and Israel, so we have a right to make demands on both countries). Three, we do try and force dicatorships and nasty countries to do the right thing, since it is generally our countries that have either installed and/or maintained those dictatorships. So again, we have a moral responsibility to fix those problems.

Frankly, democracies have an obligation to be responsible that dictatorships don't have. Damn, that sux. But, I don't want to trade our democratic republic for a dictatorship just so I don't have to have any responsibilities (even though many Americans seem to be willing to do so). In fact, I'd rather trade it for something wiith even more responsibilities, an actual democracy.

	06-04-2002 01:06									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Also, how can you excuse the Arab dismissal of UN resolutions yet deride Israel for doing the same thing? Is the UN a legitimate governing body that must be followed?

Like I said, the Partition Plan was a non-binding resolution. It did not have the authority of law or force. The conditions placed on the UN by Britain, who turned the problem over to them, was that the plan be acceptable to both sides. There is no onus on the Palestinians for refusing to accept this plan, it wasn't binding. However, the Israelis did agree to the plan, and then proceeded to undermine it by making a deal with Jordan to hand the Arab areas over to Jordan, and at the same time invading the Arab areas themselves, counting on the idea that Jordan didn't really want to fight over the land that Israel was seizing.

Furthermore, when the UN sent Count Bernadette to Palestine/Israel to work out the Israeli-Arab truces and figure out how to solve the problem, he was assassinated by the Israeli's, because his plan would have been less generous to the Israelis, handing over more land to areas with Palestinian majorities.

And where the heck is Natan in all of this? He should be contradicting me all over the place?

	06-04-2002 01:11									#153
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And where the heck is Natan in all of this? He should be contradicting me all over the place?

Siro could massively spam you, if you want.

	06-04-2002 05:05									#154
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Just for record, Australia does accept ME refugees, we are one of the few countries in the world with a refugee program. We take 10,00 per year from all over the world out of total migrant intake of about 100,000 per year.

The current government just likes to d*ck around with the illegal boat arrivals to discourage people smuggling and keep the red neck voters happy.

Over half of the illegals, mosly Afghans and Iraqis, eventually get refugee status.

	06-04-2002 07:57									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Just for record, Australia does accept ME refugees, we are one of the few countries in the world with a refugee program. We take 10,00 per year from all over the world out of total migrant intake of about 100,000 per year. The current government just likes to d*ck around with the illegal boat arrivals to discourage people smuggling and keep the red neck voters happy. Over half of the illegals, mosly Afghans and Iraqis, eventually get refugee status.

Australia take in a wopping 100,000 immigratns/ year? I'm so impressed. In contrast we take in merely over a million immigrants each year. We now have more than 6 million Muslims living in this country.

	06-04-2002 08:37									#156
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Australia also only has 20 million people in it, giving them a higher immigration rate than you. Canada has a higher immigration rate as well.

Why are you trying to turn this into a pissing contest?

	06-04-2002 12:13									#157
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Three, we do try and force dicatorships and nasty countries to do the right thing, since it is generally our countries that have either installed and/or maintained those dictatorships. So again, we have a moral responsibility to fix those problems.

The governments we have installed / maintained are a drop in the bucket of the refugee problem in comparison to those of our adversaries in the Cold War.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Frankly, democracies have an obligation to be responsible that dictatorships don't have. Damn, that sux. But, I don't want to trade our democratic republic for a dictatorship just so I don't have to have any responsibilities (even though many Americans seem to be willing to do so). In fact, I'd rather trade it for something wiith even more responsibilities, an actual democracy.

Bull. All states have the same obligations internationally. It may be more virtuous to keep your commitments or go the extra mile, but it's imortant to note that a lot of states are just pissing in the reservoir. We certainly don't have to listen to whining from states which regularly do so when we do or support something they don't like. We can't surrender the moral high ground to people who don't really give a damn about it, and only use our values as a lever to influence our policy for their own ends. A pacifist who is confronted with a psychopath is likely to become a dead pacifist if he makes the assumption that the psychopath is just like him, and will respond like he will to a situation.

Morally I understand your position, and agree to the extent that our survival is not threatened. The Israelis here are in such a situation, and while I am moved by the pain on both sides, I am not moved by the crocodile tears shed by the Arabs regarding the refugee issue. If the Arabs had shown half the humanity they demand from the Israelis the number of people who are considered refugees would be dwindling rather than exploding, and there would be millions of Egypians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis who are living normal productive lives today, rather than seething populations of Palestinians who have lived in camps for generations.

	06-04-2002 15:15									#158
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX the way i see it (in my genocidial warmonger stance) is that tensions in the area wont work until one race is completely eradicated. as for which one, i'd prefer Isreal, just because they seem to reguard the US as a friend.

typical .

*bangs head up on the wall *