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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Sirotnikov is probably living on land that was once owned by some poor Palestinian now languishing in a refugee camp. |
Yeah, I live on a palestinian mass grave. I like digging up bones and playing fetch.
(Sorry if any one is hurt, but I address viciousness with viciousness.)
quote:
I wasn't claiming those numbers as refugees. I appear to have misinterpreted what MtG was trying to get at with his comments. I thought he was suggesting that vacating the Territories would not force "millions" from their homes, as I oriinally claimed. |
Ok, well, so see it as "clearing the facts".
If I mistakenly thought you spoke of refugees, so did others.
quote:
Why did you repost about the rapes? When have I ever said anything about rapes? Honestly, I'd never heard any accusation of rape, which is odd, because it accompanies almsot every war.
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I copied and pasted it from a larger aritcle disprooving claims of massacare.
quote:
Yes, it's true, many people did run away at the apporach of the Arab armies. Only a great fool stays in the path of an advancing army, regardless of which side it may or may not be on. Even "liberating" armies aren't known for their discretion. However, considering that almost every single battle took place outside the Jewish allotted territory, and that most of the refugees came from the territory Israel occupied (about 1/3rd from Arab occupied Palesitine, 2/3rds from Israel) . . . |
But they recieved orders to evacuate and believed that Arab armies would be near... they wasted no time.
It's absurd to think they'd wait to get caught in the fire, and then flee.
Obviously the fled from jewish controlled territory, mostly before fights broke out.
Btw, we did offer some to come back:
In 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return, to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (eventually released in 1953), to pay compensation for abandoned lands and to repatriate 100,000 refugees.48
- Joseph Schechtman, The Refugee in the World, (NY: A.S. Barnes and Co., 1963), p. 268.
Btw, our "deir yassin"
Just four days after the reports from Deir Yassin were published, an Arab force ambushed a Jewish convoy on the way to Hadassah Hospital, killing 77 Jews, including doctors, nurses, patients, and the director of the hospital. Another 23 people were injured. This massacre attracted little attention and is never mentioned by those who are quick to bring up Deir Yassin. Moreover, despite attacks such as this against the Jewish community in Palestine, in which more than 500 Jews were killed in the first four months after the partition decision alone, Jews did not flee.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
So you should move, but as an Israeli you should stay? I personally wouldn't choose to make my home in either place. That doesn't change the fact that some people on both sides are attached enough to their homes to stay. |
As an Israeli, presumably I'd either be born there, hence have a bit of a problem to emigrate elsewhere, depending on my circumstances, or else I'd have moved there, presumably from someplace lovely that made moving to Israel look like an improvement.
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And you suggested that it was okay to do this by dispossessing an entire nation. |
I did? I suggested that I understand the point of view of people who will do just about anything to stop the attacks. If a fence works, build a fence. If it takes a kilometer wide no-man's land, do it. If it takes a buffer zone that is wider than the range of a Katyusha, do that. If nothing short of expulsion works, then do that. If the Palestinians start dealing with the problem and trying to work back to the Oslo accords, and they actively handle their radicals and prevent further attacks, then that works too.
Once you push people hard enough, they get more interested in results than methods. If things escalate to that point, and they're damned close, the Palestinians will do a lot worse under the results column.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Soooooo, people fighting back to protect their town from attack justify a massacre?  Dier Yassin happened after the collapse of Palestinian resistence to the partition (except in Jerusalem, where the Arabs were still trying to hold on). The town had a peace agreement with it's neighboring Jewish villages. All of a sudden the Irgun and Sternists show up with a loudspeaker on a truck, which rolls into a ditch too far from town to be heard, and assault the town. There's resistence, and because the Arabs dared to fight back, the Israeli forces took the men of the town and executed them.
Don't try and defend the indefensible. |
Executed them?
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The battle was ferocious and took several hours. The Irgun suffered 41 casualties, including four dead. |
Notice - battle - people shot and were shot back at.
That's war. Not massacare.
quote:
Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's. The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report. |
quote:
“Paradoxically, the Jews say about 250 out of 400 village inhabitants [were killed], while Arab survivors say only 110 of 1,000.”[38] A study by Bir Zeit University, based on discussions with each family from the village, arrived at a figure of 107 Arab civilians dead and 12 wounded, in addition to 13 "fighters," evidence that the number of dead was smaller than claimed and that the village did have troops based there.[39] Other Arab sources have subsequently suggested the number may have been even lower.[40] |
38 - Dan Kurzman, Genesis 1948, (OH: New American Library, Inc., 1970), p. 148.
39 - Sharif Kanaana and Nihad Zitawi, "Deir Yassin," Monograph No. 4, Destroyed Palestinian Villages Documentation Project, (Bir Zeit: Documentation Center of Bir Zeit University, 1987), p. 55.
40 - Sharif Kanaana, "Reinterpreting Deir Yassin," Bir Zeit University, (April 1998).
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
quote:
It's irrelevent. People were fleeing war, and it doesn't matter on which side the army that was approaching them was. It's still war, which is a bad thing to be around, even if you're a solider. |
Which is exactly why Israel alone is not responsible for the entire refugee problem. |
No, but you are repsonsible for letting those refugees and their decendents from Israel return, if that's what they choose. It's their right to return home, and Israel has no right under international law to keep them out. It does have the power to do so, but we are arguing about morality.
quote:
I agree, we did try to spook them off at occassions, and even spread rumors.
But hey, it was war. What do you expect? The decisions to spook people off were made on tactical levels, not strategic. That's my take on it. |
I do believe it was made at a strategic level. There is no way that the Jewish Authority wanted to have a large population of Arabs in its borders. Frankly, if the ARabs hadn't fled of their own accord, it would have been necessary to expell them, since after all the land that Israel took, it would have had a minority Jewish population. The JA didn't go through all those years of fighting only to be a minority in their new country.
quote:
And we're certainly not guilty of each family having 6 children and growing up to be 4+ million people. |
It is unreasonable to expect people to stop having children just because they live in a refugee camp.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Are you guilty of letting in ever Jew in the world who wanted in, thus filling up the country and presenting refugees with a fait accompli? |
We can't settle population which hates us amongst us...
quote:
the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating:
Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees' right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason (Beirut al Massa, July 15, 1957). |
Even the UN acknowledges that:
quote:
that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so
- Resolution 194 on December 11, 1948 |
And housni Mubaral
quote:
“The Palestinian demand for the 'right of return' is totally unrealistic and would have to be solved by means of financial compensation and resettlement in Arab countries.”
— Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, Jerusalem Post, (January 26, 1989).
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Not to speak of NY Times
quote:
No nation, regardless of past rights and wrongs, could contemplate taking in a fifth-column of such a size. And fifth-column it would be — people nurtured for 20 years [in 1967] in hatred of and totally dedicated to its destruction. The readmission of the refugees would be the equivalent to the admission to the U.S. of nearly 70,000,000 sworn enemies of the nation
New York Times editorial, (May 14, 1967). |
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Mark_Lipovrovskiy
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Israel
Aug 2000
time: 05:18
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AH: Well, all I can say on the subject that it's Israel's duty to help establish a Palestinian state that would be able to accept those refugees, as well as to compensate the refugees themselves. Unfortunately, this will definitely not come to pass as long as things are exploding left and right. Here or in the Territories - but I can guarantee that things will stop exploding in the Territories as soon as they stop exploding here. Yes, yes. I know. Vicious cycle. Doom, death and despair.
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Lincoln
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Why was there no mention of antisemitism when Israel was being attacked by Palestinian suicide bombers? Can the Palestinians be antsemitic or can only the Jews be anti Palestinian?
Do you people that compare the Jews to Hitler ever compare the Palestians to him when they specifically target Jews simply because they are Jews? When the Jews were oppressed in Nazi Germany and Europe did they ever attack innocent civilians because of their oppression?
Do Palestians really like Jews? Or do they simply kill them because they are "oppressed"? Do the Jews kill the Palestinians because they love to oppress them or do they hate them for simply being Palestinians?
Is it possible that Europe is again manifesting their traditional antisemitism that was already largely in place when Hitler took it to an extreme? I think that the history lesson that is not being learned is not that the Jews are opressors but rather that the same old antisemitism that was in place before ww2 is now again showing that it is alive and well in the so called civilized world.
Why don't you Jew-haters tell us what you would do if suicide bombers regularly blew themselves up killing yout wives and children in the process. Please tell us what France would do if that happened. What would Australia do? New Zealand? Yes antisemitism is alive and well along with the blindness that goes with it.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Thanks for the admission but tell me about today. Do these millions of Palestinian refugees have a right of return to Israel? Can they reclaim their homes and property? |
Did they suddenly decide they don't hate Israel?
Read my post answering KH
quote:
No, but you are repsonsible for letting those refugees and their decendents from Israel return, if that's what they choose. It's their right to return home, and Israel has no right under international law to keep them out. It does have the power to do so, but we are arguing about morality.
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I repeat
In 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return, to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (eventually released in 1953), to pay compensation for abandoned lands and to repatriate 100,000 refugees.
- Terence Prittie, "Middle East Refugees," in Michael Curtis, et al., The Palestinians, (NJ: Transaction Books, 1975), pp. 66-67.
(oops, I quoted the wrong book last time)
And:
During the years that Israel controlled the Gaza Strip, a consistent effort was made to get the Palestinians into permanent housing. The Palestinians opposed the idea because the frustrated and bitter inhabitants of the camps provided the various terrorist factions with their manpower. Moreover, the Arab states routinely pushed for the adoption of UN resolutions demanding that Israel desist from the removal of Palestinian refugees from camps in Gaza and the West Bank. They preferred to keep the Palestinians as symbols of Israeli "oppression."
And
While Jewish refugees from Arab countries received no international assistance, Palestinians received millions of dollars through UNRWA. Initially, the United States contributed $25 million and Israel nearly $3 million. The total Arab pledges amounted to approximately $600,000. For the first 20 years, the United States provided more than two-thirds of the funds, while the Arab states continued to contribute a tiny fraction. Israel donated more funds to UNRWA than most Arab states. The Saudis did not match Israel's contribution until 1973; Kuwait and Libya, not until 1980. As recently as 1994, Israel gave more to UNRWA than all Arab countries except Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Morocco.
The United States is still by far the organization's largest contributor, donating more than $80 million, approximately 28 percent of the organization's $287 million in receipts in 1999. By contrast, Saudi Arabia contributed, $5.8 million, Kuwait $2.6 million, the U.A.E. $1 million, Oman $25,000 and Egypt $10,000. Israel and the other host countries make their contributions in kind rather than cash and Israel has dramatically reduced its assistance since transferring responsibility of the territories to the Palestinian Authority.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes, and if Israel hadn't dragged its feet for 50+ years, maybe they would be able to live at peace with their neighbors. After 50 years of squalid living, not to mention having no rights and being under threat of Israeli terrorism and oppression, I'd be less inclined to live peacefully. It is a problem of Israel's own making. |
Let's see if Israel could possibly return the refugees earlier:
In the Arab world, the refugees were viewed as a potential fifth-column within Israel. As one Lebanese paper wrote:
The return of the refugees should create a large Arab majority that would serve as the most effective means of reviving the Arab character of Palestine, while forming a powerful fifth-column for the day of revenge and reckoning.[54]
The Arabs believed the return of the refugees would virtually guarantee the destruction of Israel, a sentiment expressed by Egyptian Foreign Minister Muhammad Salah al-Din:
It is well-known and understood that the Arabs, in demanding the return of the refugees to Palestine, mean their return as masters of the Homeland and not as slaves. With a greater clarity, they mean the liquidation of the State of Israel (Al-Misri, October 11, 1949).
The plight of the refugees remained unchanged after the Suez War. In fact, even the rhetoric stayed the same. In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating:
Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees' right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason (Beirut al Massa, July 15, 1957).
A parallel can be drawn to the time of the American Revolution, during which many colonists who were loyal to England fled to Canada. The British wanted he newly formed republic to allow the loyalists to return to claim their property. Benjamin Franklin rejected this suggestion in a letter to Richard Oswald, the British negotiator, dated November 26, 1782:
Your ministers require that we should receive again into our bosom those who have been our bitterest enemies and restore their properties who have destroyed ours: and this while the wounds they have given us are still bleeding![55]
54 - Lebanese newspaper, Al Said, (April 6, 1950), quoted in Prittie in Curtis, p. 69.
55 - The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, (NY: The Macmillan Company, 1905), p. 626.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes, executed. Like at Song My (My Lai). First there was a battle, then afterwards, there was a massacre. And while you are so quick to talk about the Red Cross being escorted through, it is that very Red Cross observer who is the one who told the world about the massacre. |
How could he have told the world about the massacare if he was invited after it?
I think he jumped to some rash decisions.
Also :
Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's. The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report.
How come the Times didn't report a massacare if the Red Cross has been there?
I think someone has made an attempt to rewrite history after the fact. :/
I do agree that some civilians were shot no purpose.
However it was far from a planned massacare.
What is true is that some Arab fighters disguised themselves as women. One of them, approached an Israeli and shot him. After which the Israelis freaked and began shooting every person that got near them.
But It wasn't that much.
It's hard to believe that only 13 dead fighters (compared to 107 civilians), as Beit Zeit university would have us believe could have injured 37 Israelis, and kill 4.
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Lincoln
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"I find this characterisation offensive. Until you can find where I've claimed that the murder of Jews is any more acceptable than the murder of any other people I'd suggest you refrain from applying it again."
I certainly was not referring to you. I would however appreciate it if all of the people who have nothing good to say about Israel and excuse every act of the Palestianians as a response to "opression" would answer the questions I posed.
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Is Isreal really to blame for thier squalid living given the fact that the Arab countries? |
Jordan was the only Arab country to welcome the Palestinians and grant them citizenship (to this day Jordan is the only Arab country where Palestinians as a group can become citizens). King Abdullah considered the Palestinian Arabs and Jordanians one people. By 1950, he annexed the West Bank and forbade the use of the term Palestine in official documents.*
* - Speech to Parliament, April 24, 1950, Abdallah memoirs, p. 13; Aaron Miller, The Arab States and the Palestine Question, (DC: Center for Strategic and International Studies, 1986), p. 29.
Although demographic figures indicated ample room for settlement existed in Syria, Damascus refused to consider accepting any refugees, except those who might refuse repatriation. Syria also declined to resettle 85,000 refugees in 1952-54, though it had been offered international funds to pay for the project. Iraq was also expected to accept a large number of refugees, but proved unwilling. Lebanon insisted it had no room for the Palestinians. In 1950, the UN tried to resettle 150,000 refugees from Gaza in Libya, but was rebuffed by Egypt.
After the 1948 war, Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip and its more than 200,000 inhabitants, but refused to allow the Palestinians into Egypt or permit them to move elsewhere. Egypt’s handling of Palestinians in Gaza was so bad Saudi Arabian radio compared Nasser’ regime in Gaza to Hitler’s rule in occupied Europe in World War II.*
* - 5Isi Liebler, The Case For Israel, (Australia: The Globe Press, 1972), p. 48.
In 1952, the UNWRA set up a fund of $200 million to provide homes and jobs for the refugees, but it went untouched.
The treatment of the refugees in the decade following their displacement was best summed up by a former director of UNRWA, Ralph Garroway, in August 1958: "The Arab States do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die."*
* - Terence Prittie, "Middle East Refugees," in Michael Curtis, et al., The Palestinians, (NJ: Transaction Books, 1975), , p. 55.
Little has changed in succeeding years. Arab governments have frequently offered jobs, housing, land and other benefits to Arabs and non-Arabs, excluding Palestinians. For example, Saudi Arabia chose not to use unemployed Palestinian refugees to alleviate its labor shortage in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Instead, thousands of South Koreans and other Asians were recruited to fill jobs.
The situation grew even worse in the wake of the Gulf War. Kuwait, which employed large numbers of Palestinians but denied them citizenship, expelled more than 300,000 of them. "If people pose a security threat, as a sovereign country we have the right to exclude anyone we don't want," said Kuwaiti Ambassador to the United States, Saud Nasir Al-Sabah (Jerusalem Report, June 27, 1991).
Today, Palestine refugees in Lebanon do not have social and civil rights, and have very limited access to public health or educational facilities. The majority relies entirely on UNRWA as the sole provider of education, health and relief and social services. Considered foreigners, Palestine refugees are prohibited by law from working in more than 70 trades and professions. (UNRWA)
The Palestinian refugees held the UN responsible for ameliorating their condition; nevertheless, many Palestinians were unhappy with the treatment they were receiving from their Arab brethren. Some, like Palestinian nationalist leader Musa Alami were incredulous: "It is shameful that the Arab governments should prevent the Arab refugees from working in their countries and shut the doors in their faces and imprison them in camps."* Most refugees, however, focused their discontentment on "the Zionists," whom they blamed for their predicament rather than the vanquished Arab armies.
* - Musa Alami, "The Lesson of Palestine," Middle East Journal, (October 1949), p. 386
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05-04-2002 07:35
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