05-04-2002 08:20									#91
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I don't actually have brief for the Palestinians. I think there needs to be a solution which is fair to both sides.

Sharon punctured the immense goodwill towards Israel in the West that existed towards Israel when he invaded Lebanon in 1982. Now he is destroying what is left with another military adventure.

As Barak said - Israel has lost the high moral ground and is fuelling a very dangerous situation in the region which may lead to the collapse of moderate Arab governments.

	05-04-2002 08:20									#92
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And how do you know that none of them would be willing to live in peace?

read the rest of my posts. (about hostile people & fifth clumn strategy)

read their sites on the net. watch them go out and give out candy after successfull terracts.

Hell, even I tried to talk to palestinians over the internet.
It was 1st January 2000, early morning. I was in a chat room. I discovered one of the people was a palestinian. I greeted him, said I'm a leftie and belive in the peace process and i think we should live in peace in the future.

He wrote some very not nice things, and proceded to recollecting memories with another palestinian, who of their relatives was a terrorist.

	05-04-2002 08:20									#93
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All of which, of course, let's Israel off the hook for their own crimes against humanity.

	05-04-2002 08:21									#94
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quote: read their sites on the net. watch them go out and give out candy after successfull terracts

Who is "them"?

	05-04-2002 08:23									#95
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara All of which, of course, let's Israel off the hook for their own crimes against humanity.

You've run out of things to blaim Israel for?

Circumstances make the difference.

Obviously I think that those who went ballistics after the cross dresser spooked them. and shot up people in Deir Yassin should have been tried. But I'm not in the position to change history.

	05-04-2002 08:25									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Obviously I think that those who went ballistics after the cross dresser spooked them. and shot up people in Deir Yassin should have been tried. But I'm not in the position to change history.

Is Yitsak Shamir still alive? You can get him? He was in charge of the Stern Gang when it did this.

edit: (chegitz previous thought it was Sharon who was in charge, but he was mistaken.)

	05-04-2002 08:28									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Sharon punctured the immense goodwill towards Israel in the West that existed towards Israel when he invaded Lebanon in 1982. Now he is destroying what is left with another military adventure.

The invasion to Lebanon was done exactly from the same reasons that America invaded Afghanistan.

Arafat's PLO was threatening us.

Sabra & Shatilla was a grave mistake. But it was performed by the Christians. Israel did expect them to control themselves. After all Israel had contact with them for some time, and trained them like a military.

And I am quite very angry that people haven't stopped that in time.

But then again - at that time - Israel was afraid to enter refugee camps.

Notice how we've entered refugee camps several times since, and the palestinians suffered very low casualties, most of which - militia men.

quote: As Barak said - Israel has lost the high moral ground and is fuelling a very dangerous situation in the region which may lead to the collapse of moderate Arab governments.

Barak is trying to win scores for himself.
I beleive that not counting possible abuses by some rivate soldiers, we haven't lost moral ground.

And this won't collapse anyone.

Unless of course Hezballa won't be controlled.
That's the possible option for regional war now.
If Hezballa won't stop shelling Israel, we could very well attack Syria with huge force.

	05-04-2002 08:30									#98
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Who is "them", Siro?

	05-04-2002 08:33									#99
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Who is "them"?

In the example Siro is describing would be the same people that celebrated the events of 9/11.

	05-04-2002 08:35									#100
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You can have your party if you'd like. I've had my share of the fun.

Read http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html
if you want to know my feelings.

I've read some 70+ articles today....
Many of which I quoted on the "Barak Proposal..." Thread.

They are all excellent read and all backed up with sources.

They present the facts which determine my opinion, why there will be no peace.

My eyes are aching. DD sent me a huge article about Deir Yassin (with "revisited" in the title I'm reading "revisionist" but never mind ).

I'll read it tommorow.


Now I'm gonna browse some fetish sites and chill out

And I'm gonna monitor the lighter threads on OT.

	05-04-2002 08:35									#101
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Hey Siro - I hope I'm your friend. I'm glad you changed your avatar because it broke my heart to think that soon your fresh young face will be in uniform and maybe your life would be at risk.

I'd feel the same way about a Palestinian kid.

I hope a way out is found before it comes to that.

	05-04-2002 08:36									#102
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc In the example Siro is describing would be the same people that celebrated the events of 9/11.

Who would that be?

	05-04-2002 08:37									#103
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Who is "them", Siro?

Your english level is deplorable

All my most basic english tests require some understanding and at least one question of "to whom the word 'them' on line 25 refers to?" form.

I always get that right.

You don't?

	05-04-2002 08:37									#104
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Don't want to answer?

	05-04-2002 08:39									#105
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Who would that be?

These people.

	05-04-2002 08:40									#106
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By my calculations, that leaves ~3 million refugees unaccounted for.

	05-04-2002 08:42									#107
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse By my calculations, that leaves ~3 million refugees unaccounted for.

You neglect to account for the massive support suicide bombings have among the Palestinian body politic.

	05-04-2002 08:42									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Hey Siro - I hope I'm your friend.

Sure you are.

You just like to troll people, and have firm ideas about the ME without having firm facts, but rather the Pal lies.

It'll change

quote: I'm glad you changed your avatar because it broke my heart to think that soon your fresh young face will be in uniform and maybe your life would be at risk.

Umm.. I'm not sure.

I'll try to go learn computers instead.

And then I'll try to serve as a programmer in dept. of security or in technological troops, or in intelligence which is cool.

quote: I'd feel the same way about a Palestinian kid.

So would I. I would recommend him not leaving home, and not protesting as a way to get a state.

Israeli public pressure will give Palestinians a state, sooner or later.

And terracts just decrease it.

quote: I hope a way out is found before it comes to that.

There is no way out.

Israel will probably cease to exist in some 20 years.
Or we'll do something very very bad to the palestinians.

It's my honest opinion.

Again, read the articles I posted to find out why.

	05-04-2002 08:43									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov The invasion to Lebanon was done exactly from the same reasons that America invaded Afghanistan.

Really? please cite some attacks on Israel from the PLO in Lebanon from July 24, 1981 and June 6, 1982, the day Israel invaded. This is the period of he cease-fire that the PLO supposedly violated.

I'll give you one. On May 9 or 10, the PLO shelled Northern Israel, but fired away from the settlements. The provacation for this shelling was two days (April 21 and May 9) of Israeli bombing of PLO camps, in which thirty-nine people were killed and many wounded. In response to these attacks, the PLO fired 8 volleys into Israel, keeping away from any settlements.

So, please show, without massive SPAM, the causi belli for Israel's invasion of Lebanon.

	05-04-2002 08:44									#110
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quote: There is no way out. Israel will probably cease to exist in some 20 years. Or we'll do something very very bad to the palestinians

I don't think either will happen. I also don't think it'll be completely solved by then, but I get the feeling you'll be on your way.

	05-04-2002 08:45									#111
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Don't want to answer?

You keep asking "who is them" for every post of mine.
That was annoying

Plus DD alrady asnwered you.

In recent polls, less than 20% think that the intifada is bad.
This is worse than when it started.
And better than a few months ago.

Arafat will drag this for at least another year (if we let him out again) say Israeli intelligence.

Palestinains don't recognize Israel.

The peace process, is the first stage, of their strategy of creating a united "historic" palestine.

I've read enough such claims by both official and unofficial sources from the palestinians.

	05-04-2002 08:45									#112
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Things are often not as bad as they seem to those too close to the situation, either in time or in location.

	05-04-2002 08:47									#113
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I'm curious. Since Sharon pushed the invasion past the cabinet approved 40 kilometre limit in the invasion of Lebanon, why wasn't he sacked as Defense Minister or tried for insubordination or something?

	05-04-2002 08:48									#114
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You neglect to account for the massive support suicide bombings have among the Palestinian body politic.

You neglect to account for what might happen to that support if offered their land back and full and equal citizenship in a shared state.

	05-04-2002 08:49									#115
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.

	05-04-2002 08:49									#116
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You neglect to account for what might happen to that support if offered their land back and full and equal citizenship in a shared state.

That might actually have happened by now if they had not been planning violence during Camp David II.

	05-04-2002 08:51									#117
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Do you really want to play chicken-and-egg with blame?

	05-04-2002 08:52									#118
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Really? please cite some attacks on Israel from the PLO in Lebanon from July 24, 1981 and June 6, 1982, the day Israel invaded. This is the period of he cease-fire that the PLO supposedly violated.

I don't recall now since I've been awake for some 20 hours, and am currently in a brain overload.

Anyway, our casus belli was the assassination of an ambassador by palestinians or something.

I'm speaking of general term - The PLO was comitting lots of terrorist attacks and was basically taking control of Lebanon creating PLOland, as Israel called it.

We decided to take out the terror thingies.

quote: I'll give you one. On May 9 or 10, the PLO shelled Northern Israel, but fired away from the settlements. The provacation for this shelling was two days (April 21 and May 9) of Israeli bombing of PLO camps, in which thirty-nine people were killed and many wounded. In response to these attacks, the PLO fired 8 volleys into Israel, keeping away from any settlements.

I'll have to read more on what caused Israeli bombing then

You just read that after Dalgetti told you there were bombings, didn't you?

quote: So, please show, without massive SPAM, the causi belli for Israel's invasion of Lebanon.

I remember we had someone assassinated.

Anyway, I'm talking about reasons, not casus bellis.

The reason is the same as Afghanistan. To clear terror which put us in danger.

	05-04-2002 08:56									#119
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Do you really want to play chicken-and-egg with blame?

We could go back to the numerous other times Arafat has acted in bad faith during the peace process, the "friendship treaty" he signed with Hamas, the ludicrous suggestion that a man who claims to be so incompetent at controlling his own people is a person that can deliver any sort of peace, etc.

	05-04-2002 08:56									#120
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Do you really want to play chicken-and-egg with blame?

Yes.


1922, Mufti of Jerusalem, Al-Husaini begins spreading anti-semitist propoganda, and claims jews want to destroy Al-Haram Al-Sharif (ie Temple Mount).

quote: Things are often not as bad as they seem to those too close to the situation, either in time or in location.

Nah, they're worse.
From here it looks nicer.

But read the Barak thread to see what bugs me.
They plan a whole state - not side by side. Side by side is just a phase for them.

quote: You neglect to account for what might happen to that support if offered their land back and full and equal citizenship in a shared state.

They rejected shared state by starting massacares in the 20s.

And I reject it now, since people who hate me, should be allowed near me, or allowed to be a majority in my democratic state.

One election and this state becomes yet another Syria.