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Mark_Lipovrovskiy
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Israel
Aug 2000
time: 05:18
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Horse, please. Not millions. Thousands.
But as much as I'm grieved to hear people talking about "final solutions" unashamed, I don't think that the two situations are in any way comparable. Not in the actions/stances of either side.
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:18
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There weren't "millions" of Palestinians there to expel.
The simple fact is that the Palestinian leadership, including Arafat, took a major gamble after the Oslo accords, etc., and they're losing.
They wanted more concessions, so they decided to embark on a campaign of increasing attacks, while Arafat rolled his eyes and pandered to western news, and while his Keystone Cop impersonating security forces did nothing, when they weren't actively looking the other way.
The Israeli people will not tolerate a continuous flow of fanatic suicide bombers being continuously cheered on, sheltered, aided and abetted by the Palestinian communities. If the Palestinians don't handle the radicals in their midst, then the Israelis will.
The comparisons to Nazi Germany are so ****ing absurd that I don't think any of you are really that obtuse. The German and other Jews in Europe were not suicide bombing any Germans they could find and carrying out mass acts of terrorism and guerilla war - they were an integral part of German society, and "wartime reality" is bullshit - the Reich "purity" laws and professions laws occurred years before the war, and for no other reason than hatred and greed. (Göring made a fortune in his "joint ventures") The Jews sure as hell did nothing to escalate the situation, say, blowing up German women and kids at Berlin restaurants?
The Jews in Europe were also a militarily powerless minority, who had no means of exerting a threat against the stability, let alone the survival, of the German Reich.
The Palestinians are surrounded with arab and other sympathizers, are well armed, (even if undisciplined and poorly led) and very definitely have the means to continuously destabilize the Israeli state, which like it or not, exists. No other country in the world would tolerate that kind of active threat on and within it's borders.
The Palestinians are doing nothing but ****ing themselves for generations, because they do have very legitimate grievances, but they've chosen a path that will have them airing those grievances from Baghdad and Damascus, not Bethleham and Ramallah.
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Seeker
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London Ontario
Jan 1970
time: 00:18
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Differences:
Nazi: Race enemies, race enemies are sub-human and have 0 rights of any kind, like an ant, anti-individualist, super-collectivist
Zionist (or any kind of nationalist not as extreme as Nazi): Recognizes right of opponents to exist, their humanity, the fact that individuals do, or at least should, have rights..., the enemies of zionism are political and not racial, etc etc...
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MichaeltheGreat
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Apolyton Grand Executioner
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mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
MtG, while I agree that it's ridiculous to compare anything on the table in Israel currently with the genocide of Jews in Nazi Europe, doesn't the current upsurge of popularity for the idea of Israel forcibly moving millions of people from their homes and filling them with their own people chill you in the slightest? |
If I was an Israeli, living in the day to day reality of wondering if my wife and children would be spread in pieces and splattered all over the pavement for the "crime" of being Israeli and picking the wrong day to go shopping or out to eat - or if I wondered if my only son would grow up to fight and die in yet another war with my arab neighbors, then yes, I'd be in favor of sending the Palestinians to the dark side of the moon if necessary to protect my family and my people.
As long as the Palestinians and other arabs threaten the security and survival of the Israeli state and people, they will lose. When you look at what the Palestinian situation could be right now had they gone along with the Oslo accords, compared to what it actually is, let alone what next month may bring, it's absurd. They have pissed away everything that was gained, and are going backwards at full speed.
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Mark_Lipovrovskiy
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Israel
Aug 2000
time: 05:18
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In '48, the number of Palestinians actively expelled by Israel was no more than a few tenths of thousands. Probably more like ten thousand or so. After that, Israel actively displaced (to my knowledge, I'm prepared to be corrected) no Palestinians - perhaps with the exception of terrorist gangs and armies in Lebanon and such. If you'd make some more research, you'd probably find out the the Arab states did most of the damage to the Palestinian people, first by encouraging them to leave and then by oppressing them horribly - to this day.
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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:18
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Here are some precise figures:
Palestinian Refugees: An Overview
Estimates vary of the number of Palestinians refugees displaced from within what became the borders of Israel in 1948. In 1949, the United Nations Conciliation Commission put the number at 726,000; the newly-established United Nations Relief and Works Agency subsequently put the number at 957,000 in 1950. The Israeli government has in the past suggested numbers as low as 520,000, while Palestinian researchers have suggested up to 850,000. Of this population, approximately one-third fled to the West Bank, another third to the Gaza Strip, and the remainder to Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or farther afield.
In 1967, another 300,000 Palestinians fled from the West Bank and Gaza, to Jordan (200,000), Syria, Egypt and elsewhere. Of these, approximately 180,000 were first-time refugees ("displaced persons"), while the remainder were 1948 refugees uprooted for the second time.
Estimates put the Palestinian population at approximately 6.6 million in 1995. In 1995, UNRWA data showed some 3,172,641 registered refugees in its "area of operation" (West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon), plus an estimated 335,000 non-registered "displaced persons".
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:18
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quote:
Because my info tells me that the West Bank has 2.1 million people living in it and Gaza has 1.2 million. |
I'd call it a huge over estimation.
From what I know Gaza contains somwhat less than 1 million, and the number is not over 2 million for the West bank.
And I stress most of these weren't expelled but rather were born in the diaspora (as sons of refugees) or are people who naturally lived there.
The number of refugees I've seen mentioned by palestinians themselves, living in Gaza is 700K.
The number of expelled moves from 470K - 650K at best.
quote:
Many Arabs claim that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians became refugees in 1947-49. The last census was taken by the British in 1945. It found approximately 1.2 million permanent Arab residents in all of Palestine. On November 30, 1947, the date the UN voted for partition, the total within the boundaries of the State of Israel (as fixed by the Armistice Agreements of 1949) was 809,100. A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war.1 This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure — 472,000*
* - Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine, Submitted to the Secretary-General for Transmission to the Members of the United Nations, General Assembly Official Records: Third Session, Supplement No.11 (A\648), Paris, 1948, p. 47 and Supplement No. 11A (A\689, and A\689\Add.1, p. 5.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker
Differences:
Nazi: Race enemies, race enemies are sub-human and have 0 rights of any kind, like an ant, anti-individualist, super-collectivist |
Actually, while the Nazis were about promoting the unity of the masses, it wasn't about collectivism. It was about creating a hive type society, in which the worker drones sloaved away for the good the ubermench, or more precisely, the financial backers of the Nazi party.
quote:
Zionist (or any kind of nationalist not as extreme as Nazi): Recognizes right of opponents to exist, their humanity, the fact that individuals do, or at least should, have rights..., the enemies of zionism are political and not racial, etc etc... |
There is a section of the Zionist movement that is calling the Palesintians subhuman and calling for their extermination. They are a small section of the movement, but they have political representation in the Knesset.
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05-04-2002 05:51
DOH!
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