07-04-2002 10:34									#91
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse At least they gave us Medicare. What has Alberta done for me?

And look how well it works for us.

I had to wait over a year to get my frickin' cyst removed because of the glorious medicare, whereas my dad got his removed in California the same day he went to the doctor with it.

	07-04-2002 10:39									#92
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And my mother has had two breast tumours removed and intestinal work done for free.

We spend 1/3 as much on health care as the US and overall (including the 15% of America's pop. that has no health coverage whatsoever) we get better service for it.

By the way, do you know how much the cost of prescription medication has gone up in this country in the last 15 years? 1250%. I'll give you one guess as to who I blame for that, and it's not the Medicare program.

	07-04-2002 10:45									#93
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And my mother has had two breast tumours removed and intestinal work done for free.

His operation to remove the cyst was "free" too.
You know why?

His employer gave him health insurance. As do most employers.

quote: We spend 1/3 as much on health care as the US

And it shows. Amen.

quote: and overall (including the 15% of America's pop. that has no health coverage whatsoever) we get better service for it.

That is completely and totally not true. I've lived in both California and Canada, and I can tell you that even with HMOs, you get speedier and better service in the US. That much is really obvious.

quote: By the way, do you know how much the cost of prescription medication has gone up in this country in the last 15 years? 1250%. I'll give you one guess as to who I blame for that, and it's not the Medicare program.

I don't know who you blame for it. Perhaps it's the evil capitalist bastard drug corporations or the federal government for failure to regulate the market properly?

	07-04-2002 10:48									#94
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Sounds good to me. What about granting corporate welfare in the form of patent extensions, etc.? We should cut the patent time, not extend it. The drug companies are running their own little sandbox in the States, and I don't think we should take part.

	07-04-2002 10:50									#95
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quote: That is completely and totally not true. I've lived in both California and Canada, and I can tell you that even with HMOs, you get speedier and better service in the US. That much is really obvious

You've got full health benefits at top-of-the-line insurers and you wonder why you get quicker service? Go ask the guy who's working for 10$ an hour at the local garage and tell me what sort of health benefits he's getting.

	07-04-2002 10:50									#96
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Well, I don't know about you, but I really hate how I had to wait a year for a relatively simple procedure.

I didn't like how my grandmother hate to wait many months before begining chemo for breast cancer, where she died about a month after it started (it could be argued that had the service been faster she'd have lived longer).

The Canadian health system is in shambles, and to provide a very objective report on whether or not it needs to be changed they got the old Premier of Saskatchewan (birthplace of the system), who amazingly determined it's not fundamentally flawed, it just lacks in some areas.

	07-04-2002 10:53									#97
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quote: You've got full health benefits at top-of-the-line insurers and you wonder why you get quicker service? Go ask the guy who's working for 10$ an hour at the local garage and tell me what sort of health benefits he's getting.

Probably pretty good. Even McDonalds provides good medicare (Kaiser-Permanente in California where I lived, same as my dad's oil company gave him).

What you've been reading is overblown hype by none other than King Jean and his federal cohorts.

	07-04-2002 10:53									#98
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Go ask the guy who's working for 10$ an hour at the local garage and tell me what sort of health benefits he's getting.

It's ok. Why do you ask?

	07-04-2002 10:54									#99
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That's nice, Asher, but the basic fact is that most people don't feel the system is in shambles. The federal government pulled way too much money out so Paul Martin could look good. All that's needed is to up spending back to 1985 or 1990 level, and all the Albertan whining in the world isn't going to convince Canadians to give up their cradle-to-grave socialised health care.

	07-04-2002 10:55									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's ok. Why do you ask?

I suppose that's why you put out movies about how an average guy takes a hospital hostage because he's too poor to get his kid proper coverage?

	07-04-2002 10:56									#101
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Well, this is how I see it. Tell me where my logic fails.

The current federal government continually screws everything they touch up. Everything. Why are they continually being elected? Even Joe Clark and the Conservatives would be a breah of fresh air, and what's wrong with them? They don't advocate private health care, they don't advocate increasing spending in the military, what's so bad about him? Why is Chretien a better choice, considering Bush is a smarter man?

	07-04-2002 10:57									#102
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I suppose that's why you put out movies about how an average guy takes a hospital hostage because he's too poor to get his kid proper coverage?

You asked about my (a general person's) personal experience with the US health care system, KH. You didn't ask anyone to give you a run down of the faults of it.

	07-04-2002 10:58									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Probably pretty good. Even McDonalds provides good medicare (Kaiser-Permanente in California where I lived, same as my dad's oil company gave him). What you've been reading is overblown hype by none other than King Jean and his federal cohorts.

Really? Where do the 40 million people sans health care come from, then? That means they have neither individually-paid coverage nor employer benefits.

	07-04-2002 10:59									#104
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Really? Where do the 40 million people sans health care come from, then? That means they have neither individually-paid coverage nor employer benefits.

Small businesses which don't feel like fronting the cost of having insurance for their employees, people who feel that insurance is a waste of money and they'll pay for it when they need it, and unemployed people.

And IIRC, the number is 30M, not 40.

	07-04-2002 11:02									#105
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BTW, I find it "curious" that you wave away Asher's assertion regarding the faliures of the Canadian Health System without any evidence to the contrary simply because you feel that everything is fine and a statement that Canadian people are lazy.

	07-04-2002 11:03									#106
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It's all about choice, right? Not poverty?

	07-04-2002 11:08									#107
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc BTW, I find it "curious" that you wave away Asher's assertion regarding the faliures of the Canadian Health System without any evidence to the contrary simply because you feel that everything is fine and a statement that Canadian people are lazy.

a) Asher has forsaken statistical evidence for anecdotal evidence. I find it very hard to argue with him on that basis, since it's irrelevant.

b) Contrary to his sarcastic remarks, the federal government has undertaken a serious study of any shortcomings in the system. When actual data comes out of it I'll be happy to argue based on it. There's a hysterical attitude in this country toward health care, simply because it is publically-funded. It's very easy to dismiss those with problems in the US as being responsible for themselves. That way you don't have to care when the system falls down.

	07-04-2002 11:09									#108
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KH, don't act all holier than thou.

You're saying that in order to fix the Canadian system it needs more funding.

More funding means more taxes.

But oh, wait, who gets to pay those taxes?

The richer people.

The Canadian health system is not FREE in any terms. The Canadian system revolves around the richer payingfor the poorer to get medical service. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but stop using other words. The rich get taxed heavily in Canada, much of it going to funding health care for other people.

Raising health care funding is simply forcing richer people to buy "insurance" for the poorer people. And it's not even GOOD service. And the real kicker is, people like you run around jumping and clicking heels screaming, "It's free! FREE!" while other people look at their income tax statements and pull their hair in frustration.

	07-04-2002 11:10									#109
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Explain to me all this Quebec thing. Enter the AD-FREE zone

My this is becoming fun. I never thought OT could be so much fun.

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai And Ontario and Quebec paid for the CPR, which cost a fortune in its day, and the main beneficiaries were the western provinces. But I still say its the refinery fumes.

Uhhh. Sorry to burst your bubble, but....

A rail link with BC was a precondition of their joining Confederation. It was not built for the enjoyment of the beaver and moose and buffalo who were the main inhabitants of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta at the time. Another thing. The rail road was necessary for the Canadian government to assert sovereignty across the West in the face of American pressure.

People followed the rails. No rails, fewer or no people. In fact, Western Canada was largely settled in accord with plans in central Canada to create it's own colonies. Guess you didn't know that did you buck shot? Well guess what? We don't particularly care to be treated as colonists out here anymore! You think Quebec has reasons to grumble. Live a life on these Prairies and then tell me about it!

One last thing. Ever heard of the Crow Rate? Yeah, that's the one. The one where Western Canada was subsidised for shipping grain to Eastern Canada. Did you know the flip side? Western Canada paid jacked up rates to ship any finished goods to Eastern Canada. That and the fact that if you grow wheat on the prairies you must sell your crop to the Canada Wheat Board. Try to truck it across the border at your own expense and the government of Canada will prosecute you. Meanwhile, farmers in Ontario and everywhere else can sell their produce any G*d-damned place they want, free of the CWB. Chew on them apples.

Yes, I am getting upset. I get upset every time I am confronted with incredible ignorance from central Canada or BC about how swell we have it out here and how we couldn't possibly have anything to be upset over!

If I hear anymore ignorant platitudes about how Alberta is just spoiled I think I may burst. Go ahead. Do it! Prove how incredibly ignorant you all can be.

Ahem. Time for tea.

	07-04-2002 11:12									#110
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quote: Raising health care funding is simply forcing richer people to buy "insurance" for the poorer people

That's right, to a certain extent. We don't have a completely free market, and we don't want one. Why should the rich buy the roads or the police or the army for the poor? There's never been a free market economy for the basic reason that it's an impossible concept. The idea that you can separate an individual's contribution to society out is fundamentally flawed, and the idea that capitalism as it exists now does this is just plain laughable.

	07-04-2002 11:13									#111
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse a) Asher has forsaken statistical evidence for anecdotal evidence. I find it very hard to argue with him on that basis, since it's irrelevant.

I haven't seen you post any facts or anything to back up your anecdotal evidence.

quote: b) Contrary to his sarcastic remarks, the federal government has undertaken a serious study of any shortcomings in the system.

It was a FARCE!
ROY ROMANNO?! A diehard SOCIALIST? From the province who invented medicare?! Oh my god, it's such a surprise he thinks the system is fine!

	07-04-2002 11:14									#112
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It's a farce! It's a farce! I don't care what the numbers will say, it's all lies!

	07-04-2002 11:15									#113
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I get the feeling you'll be much more comfortable in the States. We'll be sorry to see you go and all, but au revoir...

	07-04-2002 11:17									#114
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Health care, shmelf care.

We really should just start charging for it and let the pitance Ottawa contributes to Alberta be lost. We can still fund it ourselves. Why not, we already do through taxes to the province.

	07-04-2002 11:18									#115
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quote: It's a farce! It's a farce! I don't care what the numbers will say, it's all lies!

The thing his report LACKED was numbers.

He basically said more money will solve the problem. Being socialist, he doesn't see a problem with the continual rise of income tax. It's fine, he says, because it's free! Free I tell ya.

quote: That's right, to a certain extent. We don't have a completely free market, and we don't want one. Why should the rich buy the roads or the police or the army for the poor?

Why should the poor live off of the generosity of the rich?

The world's not a fair place. I mean, we're hindering evolution with socialist policies these days. People become more and more lazy because they realize they can. I can be lazy because someone else will pay for my health care. I can sit on my ass and get fat and watch TV and drink beer all day because health care is free, I don't need to pay for it...

quote: The idea that you can separate an individual's contribution to society out is fundamentally flawed, and the idea that capitalism as it exists now does this is just plain laughable.

Why isn't car insurance free too, KH?
They made it a law to have it, why isn't it free?

The government is not consistent.
No one said pure capitalism exists now, you're setting up a straw man...

	07-04-2002 11:18									#116
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Of course, we already do charge for it. It's called an Alberta Health Care premium.

	07-04-2002 11:20									#117
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quote: Why isn't car insurance free too, KH? They made it a law to have it, why isn't it free?

Because I'm not in charge.

quote: Why should the poor live off of the generosity of the rich?

Why should the rich maintain their position due to the toil of the poor?

	07-04-2002 11:22									#118
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Because I'm not in charge.

Why don't you make food free too? Everyone needs food.
And electricity. That should be free.
Why don't we just give ALL of our money to the state so they can make EVERYTHING free for us. Free is good!

quote: quote: Why should the poor live off of the generosity of the rich? Why should the rich maintain their position due to the toil of the poor?

Because they've got the ability and skill to do so. That's how the world works.

There's a more general concept of the food chain in nature. Are you familiar with that?

Some people just aren't as cut out in life as others.

	07-04-2002 11:24									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Why don't you make food free too? Everyone needs food. And electricity. That should be free. Why don't we just give ALL of our money to the state so they can make EVERYTHING free for us. Free is good!

Sounds good to me.

quote: Because they've got the ability and skill to do so. That's how the world works

They're parasites on the back of the masses, and they need to be shaken off. All you've told me is that might makes right. Commies have always known that. It's just a matter of getting the great unwashed to realise it too...

	07-04-2002 11:27									#120
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Notice that map is Red. Very Red.

Capitalists and Communists. Ohh my!

I think I better depart before I blow another gasket.

Sorry, but that rail road thing was too much to ignore.