07-04-2002 11:27									#121
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse They're parasites on the back of the masses, and they need to be shaken off. All you've told me is that might makes right. Commies have always known that. It's just a matter of getting the great unwashed to realise it too...

Poor people can be rich too.

You want an example? Take my father. He grew up the son of a war vet who became a carpenter in Beachburg, Ontario (a town of 2000 or so). They were incredibly poor, and the father actually died when my dad was in 12th grade. My dad busted his ass and worked hard in school, went to Waterloo and graduated with a degree in Civil Engineering. He was hired immediately by Chevron and moved to Calgary, where he's now an executive.

Poor people are poor for a reason. I don't buy the excuse that the rich people are keeping them down, I've seen that it's not true first hand. So don't give me that.

	07-04-2002 11:31									#122
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Congratulations. Both my parents were poor growing up, too and now they're pretty comfortable. Don't mean a thing.

a) The majority of wealth is transferred from one generation to the next via inheitance

b) You're assuming that getting rich implies that you've necessarily put more in than somebody else. Bullsh*t.

	07-04-2002 11:34									#123
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse a) The majority of wealth is transferred from one generation to the next via inheitance

So I'm the one with anecdotal evidence?

quote: b) You're assuming that getting rich implies that you've necessarily put more in than somebody else. Bullsh*t.

I did no such thing.
I'm assuming that some people are simply better suited for modern Urban life than others. Not everyone's an Olympian, not everyone's rich.

	07-04-2002 11:34									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It was a FARCE! ROY ROMANNO?! A diehard SOCIALIST? From the province who invented medicare?! Oh my god, it's such a surprise he thinks the system is fine!

Just in case anyone thinks Calgary boy here speaks for Alberta, let me set you straight. I've had my fill of this Reform/Alliance (that means Republican for our American friends) drivel. And it's Romanow, not Rommano, BTW.

There are delays in our health care system, that is true. But mainly because of the funding cuts of people like Calagry's Ralph Klein, unfortunately the current Premier of Alberta. Here are some facts:

1) The US health care system has over 26 million people with no health care coverage at all. In Canada, everyone is covered.

2) Per capita costs of the health care system in the US, presently the most privatized in the world, are more than double those in Canada and are higher than in any other country.

3) Typical monthly premiums in the US for private health insurance are in the $200-$400/month range. In 8 out of 10 provinces of Canada there are no premiums at all. Alberta is an obvious exception, although premiums here are still pretty minimal compared to the US.

If your daddy was able to get quick service in the US, it's because he's rich and is willing to step over the poor people to get served first. And I can't think of a better example of Reform/Alliance thinking.

	07-04-2002 11:36									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So I'm the one with anecdotal evidence?

No, I'm presenting unverified statistical evidence. Mine is the approved style of debate here.

quote: I did no such thing. I'm assuming that some people are simply better suited for modern Urban life than others. Not everyone's an Olympian, not everyone's rich.

So you don't think that the current economic system distributes resources to those who deserve it? Why not just do away with any government, then? Step back to feudalism.

	07-04-2002 11:37									#126
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Ah. I see we've found a good Albertan.

	07-04-2002 11:40									#127
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh In 8 out of 10 provinces of Canada there are no premiums at all.

Isn't it a little dishonest to say that thier are no premiums paid at all?

	07-04-2002 11:42									#128
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No. Premiums are different than taxes. They're a flat rate, taxes are graduated.

They're like a general user fee.

	07-04-2002 11:43									#129
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Just in case anyone thinks Calgary boy here speaks for Alberta, let me set you straight. I've had my fill of this Reform/Alliance (that means Republican for our American friends) drivel. And it's Romanow, not Rommano, BTW.

Actually, I do speak for Alberta. Incase you forgot, Alberta elected Reform/Alliance people entirely. Not liberals.

quote: There are delays in our health care system, that is true. But mainly because of the funding cuts of people like Calagry's Ralph Klein, unfortunately the current Premier of Alberta. Here are some facts:

No, it's not due to Ralph Klein. The problem is nationwide, not in Alberta. It's due to the federal government, which is liberal at the moment. Coincidence?

quote: 1) The US health care system has over 26 million people with no health care coverage at all. In Canada, everyone is covered.

Yes.
In Canada, I pay twice the income tax though to get "free" health care. More than I'd pay for insurance. That's a big price for something free, isn't it?

quote: 2) Per capita costs of the health care system in the US, presently the most privatized in the world, are more than double those in Canada and are higher than in any other country.

Because they also have much higher technology. Compare hospitals in the US to those in Canada, there's a visible difference.

quote: If your daddy was able to get quick service in the US, it's because he's rich and is willing to step over the poor people to get served first. And I can't think of a better example of Reform/Alliance thinking.

Yes, that's right. Actually, he physically assaulted a child in poverty and an elderly man in order to get his cyst out right away. Good thing he's much stronger than they were!

	07-04-2002 11:44									#130
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No. Premiums are different than taxes. They're a flat rate, taxes are graduated. They're like a general user fee.

One might say they're like insurance. Only our premiums are for subpar, free services.

	07-04-2002 11:45									#131
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yes, I am getting upset. I get upset every time I am confronted with incredible ignorance from central Canada or BC about how swell we have it out here and how we couldn't possibly have anything to be upset over!

This BCer only made a facetious comment regarding Saskatchewan. BC is not immune from various and sundry complaints that could be said to fall under the title of western alienation.

And I agree with Asher regarding our health care system. It is true that the federal Liberals precipitated the crisis by underfunding, but it is time that we look at how it operates. I believe that we are one of three countries in the world, iirc it is Cuba and North Korea that are the other two, that have largely excluded the private sector from their health care system.

I have worked for ten years as a benefits consultant and I have seen a lot of stuff in our system that you would never believe. My feeling is that a two tier system of public and private is the way to go.

	07-04-2002 11:45									#132
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Yes. I say Michigan is in.

Would that count as a cuture flip?

Welcome to our nightmare. Got your health-care card?

	07-04-2002 11:45									#133
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Isn't it a little dishonest to say that thier are no premiums paid at all?

Why do you say that? I know it's hard to believe, but - THERE ARE NO HEALTH CARE PREMIUMS IN 8 OF 10 CANADIAN PROVINCES. None. At all. Really. Honest.

	07-04-2002 11:46									#134
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quote: In Canada, I pay twice the income tax though to get "free" health care. More than I'd pay for insurance. That's a big price for something free, isn't it?

You also get basically free university and a better social safety net. You get a government that actually cares about you (yes, even about Albertans), better funding for the arts and an opportunity for everybody to do something with their lives, irrespective of their backgrounds.

Not a bad deal.

	07-04-2002 11:46									#135
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse They're like a general user fee.

Say what? Since when are taxes classified as user fees?

	07-04-2002 11:47									#136
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It's a flat tax, and IIRC you can opt out (if you want the nightmare of having to pay for things yourself).

	07-04-2002 11:50									#137
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You also get basically free university and a better social safety net.

I'm on scholarship anyway. And it's hardly free, it's not much cheaper than a State University, actually. It's a Canadian myth about how cheap our post secondary education is. It's true, but not to the extent everyone wants you to believe.

quote: You get a government that actually cares about you (yes, even about Albertans)

So much so they spent public money on an Anti-Bill 11 smear campaign, spreading misinformation. How kind of them to care so deeply for me. They cared so much for me they don't want to pay for my dental insurance, but they're more than happy to cover the cost for my cyst removal, only you'll have to live for a year with it pinching your nerves and making your hand ache while writing. Small price to pay for a free service, though...

quote: better funding for the arts

Yeah, like that wonderfully horrible movie "Men with Brooms".

quote: and an opportunity for everybody to do something with their lives, irrespective of their backgrounds.

America is not the land of opportunity, but rather Canada is. Gotcha.

	07-04-2002 11:50									#138
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Sorry about the BC reference. Mostly included it as a sop to those in central Canada that I was not picking on them exclusively.

Although, my conversations with my sister-in-laws brother about my abducting my nephew to do brain washing on him to the evil ways of capitalism in Alberta may have had an influence.

I do not jest. My nephew from BC came back with me last summer to work here because he could not get a summer job in BC. His other uncle almost had a stroke at the idea of losing the lad to the evil empire. He told me about his misgivings in loud and livid detail.

	07-04-2002 11:51									#139
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Why do you say that? I know it's hard to believe, but - THERE ARE NO HEALTH CARE PREMIUMS IN 8 OF 10 CANADIAN PROVINCES. None. At all. Really. Honest.

Additional revenue for health care is received by various provinces in various ways. BC and Alberta have user pay premiums. When I lived in Ontario they had a health care tax on corporations instead.

	07-04-2002 11:51									#140
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quote: Canadian myth about how cheap our post secondary education is. It's true, but not to the extent everyone wants you to believe

Come to Quebec. Tuition <2000$ per annum

*thinks about differential tuition fees*

Wait, you might not want to. They'd charge you twice as much because they're evil bastards.

	07-04-2002 11:53									#141
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Come to Quebec. Tuition <2000$ per annum

McGill has the highest tuition in the country, IIRC. Waterloo was 2nd.

Tuition here is $2500CDN/term.

	07-04-2002 11:54									#142
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quote: McGill has the highest tuition in the country, IIRC. Waterloo was 2nd Tuition here is $2500CDN/term

That's a lie, Asher. Acadia's highest in the country, and I know what I paid. $1000CDN/term.

	07-04-2002 11:55									#143
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither His other uncle almost had a stroke at the idea of losing the lad to the evil empire.

	07-04-2002 11:55									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Actually, I do speak for Alberta. Incase you forgot, Alberta elected Reform/Alliance people entirely. Not liberals.

Tug, tug, tug.

BTW. Anne McClellen was returned in my riding. I once voted for her in the vain hopes that having a cabinet minister would help. I thought the people of Quebec might be onto something with their strategic voting. Didn't do too much good. Although the army base in Calgary was closed and the PPCLI moved to Edmonton.

Sorry to dissapoint you overlord. I await your determination of my disposal.

	07-04-2002 11:58									#145
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's a lie, Asher. Acadia's highest in the country, and I know what I paid. $1000CDN/term.

Ah, it's not the highest, but it's not $1000CDN/term according to its website.

http://www.education.mcgill.ca/distance/fees.htm

Quebec has frozen University tuition.
I give it 10 years before a McGill degree is worth the same as a community college diploma with that.

The average tuition in Ontario is $4000/year. http://canadaonline.about.com/libra...y/aa091201a.htm

	07-04-2002 12:01									#146
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I remember my bills. Just over 1000 with all fees included. 1100-1150 for 15 credits. I already explained that they charge other canadian students twice as much.

	07-04-2002 12:02									#147
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Tug, tug, tug. BTW. Anne McClellen was returned in my riding. I once voted for her in the vain hopes that having a cabinet minister would help. I thought the people of Quebec might be onto something with their strategic voting. Didn't do too much good. Although the army base in Calgary was closed and the PPCLI moved to Edmonton. Sorry to dissapoint you overlord. I await your determination of my disposal.

Dianne Ablonscy(sp?) is in my riding.
She's a sexy *****. I wanna lay her so bad.

	07-04-2002 12:03									#148
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quote: Quebec has frozen University tuition. I give it 10 years before a McGill degree is worth the same as a community college diploma with that

The tuitions have been frozen since 1993, IIRC, and McGill was just placed 2nd in the country for fundraising. We get more than our share of private donations. Annoyed because the Quebeckies can do something right?

The program I was in was considered the top physics degree in Canada by grad schools, by the way.

	07-04-2002 12:05									#149
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The tuitions have been frozen since 1993, IIRC, and McGill was just placed 2nd in the country for fundraising. We get more than our share of private donations. Annoyed because the Quebeckies can do something right?

Freezing tuition is not right. It's stupid. You'll see that in about a decade.

quote: The program I was in was considered the top physics degree in Canada by grad schools, by the way.

Grad studies are entirely different than undergrad, since much of that is funded through other means than tuition.

	07-04-2002 12:07									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Asher [QUOTE]Actually, I do speak for Alberta.

Even the most rabid right winger in Alberta may take exception to this breathtaking presumption.

quote: Incase you forgot, Alberta elected Reform/Alliance people entirely. Not liberals.

Not entirely. And that was before Stockwell Day. Next time we'll see. (and I could give a sh*t about the Liberals BTW)

quote: No, it's not due to Ralph Klein. The problem is nationwide, not in Alberta. It's due to the federal government, which is liberal at the moment. Coincidence?

I'll conceed the point. But per capita health care spending in Alberta has yet to return to pre-Klein levels.

quote: Yes.In Canada, I pay twice the income tax though to get "free" health care. More than I'd pay for insurance. That's a big price for something free, isn't it?

Nonsense. You do not pay twice the income tax that an American does. Hell, I bet you don't pay income tax at all!

quote: Because they also have much higher technology. Compare hospitals in the US to those in Canada, there's a visible difference.

More nonsense. The US has twice the per capita cost because it's a profit based system. Hundreds of giant health care corporations, each with thousands of shareholders to be satisfied, does not equal efficency and economy.

Two tier health care? Tier one: "Nurse, we'll have to order more tests. And our patient will need another prescription. No generics, though."

Tier two: "I'm sorry Mr. Johnson, I have bad news. You have what we call "no insurance."

quote: Yes, that's right. Actually, he physically assaulted a child in poverty and an elderly man in order to get his cyst out right away. Good thing he's much stronger than they were!

C'mon, I'll bet he's not that bad.