08-04-2002 11:48									#1
	Why is Canada still a constitutional monarchy? Remove this text

I've never understood this, so maybe somebody can explain this to me.

Right now we have weird laws and regulations which bend around having the Queen technically be our head of state, but she can't do anything. We have a governor general with a beefy salary, and we shuttle her around the world to do siteseeing under the veil of "spreading Canadian culture".

Why don't we just drop all of this overhead and become a republic?

Is there any logical reason at all to wasting money on added loopholes, or is it simply sentimental value?

Why can't the government put money saved from saving ridiculous monarchy-related expenses into the ailing public health care?

	08-04-2002 11:50									#2
	Be careful, Asher Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Lèse-majesté is still a felony in Canada...

	08-04-2002 11:51									#3
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Oh, and Asher: please produce a cost/benefit analysis on the monarchy in Canada. There are tourism/goodwill benefits inherent in our current relationship with the Crown.

	08-04-2002 11:51									#4
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quote: Lèse-majesté is still a felony in Canada...

Another prime example of ridiculous Canadian laws.

If I or any other real self-respecting conservative ever got into power there would be a LOT of changes to be made, and a lot of money to be saved.

Refoooooooooooooorm.

	08-04-2002 11:52									#5
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If we had started out as a republic, that would have been better, but I think that at this point cost savings aren't going to be realized by a switch. You would have to rewrite the constitution. That process and the consequent confusion over what the new constitution meant would probably end up costing far more than the cost of just sticking with what we've got.

edit: last sentence didn't make sense

	08-04-2002 11:53									#6
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Oh, and Asher: please produce a cost/benefit analysis on the monarchy in Canada. There are tourism/goodwill benefits inherent in our current relationship with the Crown.

I don't need to know the specific costs, but I do know there are zero benefits.

There are NOT tourism/goodwill benefits. You really think people come to Canada more simply because or symbolic head of state is an elderly Queen who's only been to the country once or twice in her entire life?

	08-04-2002 11:54									#7
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No, but it is a factor in their decision. Until you can show me some specifics I'm going to tend not to believe that the economic impact is anything other than minuscule, one way or the other.

	08-04-2002 11:56									#8
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And tradition is important, BTW. Ask our American neighbours if it would be okay to pave over Civil War battlegrounds, etc.

	08-04-2002 11:56									#9
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No, but it is a factor in their decision. Until you can show me some specifics I'm going to tend not to believe that the economic impact is anything other than minuscule, one way or the other.

I don't know specifics. You're stalling and counting on my laziness to win here.

There are obvious costs to the monarchy connection. Blatant ones such as the governor general and her non stop worldwide trips and accomodations.

There are no such obvious benefits.

Why do we keep latching onto a moneyhole? If your arm is poisonous you amputate it. More cost upfront but will save you money over time.

	08-04-2002 11:57									#10
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Why is Canada still a constitutional monarchy?

She isn't ready to be annexed by the US right now.

	08-04-2002 11:57									#11
	Re: Why is Canada still a constitutional monarchy? Got spare money?

To put it another way ... why not?

Quite frankly I fail to see the advantage in changing a system that seems to work fine the way it is.

Somehow I can't see that being under a republic would in any way remove loopholes. It'd just add new ones and more of them until the new system had the bugs worked out of it...
Money saved from the ridiculous monarchy-related expenses would go into ridiculous republic-related expenses rather than public health care.

	08-04-2002 11:58									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't know specifics. You're stalling and counting on my laziness to win here. There are obvious costs to the monarchy connection. Blatant ones such as the governor general and her non stop worldwide trips and accomodations. There are no such obvious benefits. Why do we keep latching onto a moneyhole? If your arm is poisonous you amputate it. More cost upfront but will save you money over time.

Why bother with national monuments? Why bother with stupid museums that need to be publicly-funded?

Sell Rideau Hall to the highest bidder! Next up: the Lincoln Memorial!

	08-04-2002 11:58									#13
	Re: Re: Why is Canada still a constitutional monarchy? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by ravagon To put it another way ... why not? Quite frankly I fail to see the advantage in changing a system that seems to work fine the way it is.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

quote: Somehow I can't see that being under a republic would in any way remove loopholes.

Like having the Queen actually own every piece of land in Canada. That's ridiculous, and shouldn't be.

quote: Money saved from the ridiculous monarchy-related expenses would go into ridiculous republic-related expenses rather than public health care.

Says who?
What republic-related expenses would be added? We've paying the cost for republic-related expenses on top of the useless symbolic monarchy expenses. Why oh why?

	08-04-2002 12:00									#14
	Re: Re: Re: Why is Canada still a constitutional monarchy? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Asher Like having the Queen actually own every piece of land in Canada. That's ridiculous, and shouldn't be

The alternative is to have the federal government own every piece of land in Canada...

	08-04-2002 12:00									#15
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Hey Asher. Why do you want to upset the Queen? Want to make her cry? You big bully!

	08-04-2002 12:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Why bother with national monuments? Why bother with stupid museums that need to be publicly-funded?

Ahhh, I see. Straw men are fun!

National monuments would be CANADIAN monuments.
I would be staunchy opposed to funding a BRITISH National Monument in Ottawa. That's not my country. Same goes for paying for British heads of state.

	08-04-2002 12:02									#17
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The alternative is to have the federal government own every piece of land in Canada...

Yes, as opposed to an elderly British lady.

Sounds good to me.
Considering the theory is you elect who gets to own your land.

	08-04-2002 12:02									#18
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Asher seems to think that getting rid of the monarchy is justifiable because it may or may not save some ridiculously small amount of money (<100 million? <10 million?). It's an important institution and is "part of our heritage".

	08-04-2002 12:02									#19
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The alternative is to have the federal government own every piece of land in Canada...

Would someone mind explaining me why the government/Queen actually needs to own every single piece of land in Canada?

	08-04-2002 12:02									#20
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They aren't British monuments: the Queen is Queen of Canada too.

	08-04-2002 12:03									#21
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Asher seems to think that getting rid of the monarchy is justifiable because it may or may not save some ridiculously small amount of money (<100 million? <10 million?). It's an important institution and is "part of our heritage".

KH, this is precisely why the liberals need to get out of power.

What's 100M here, 100M there? It's all small beans.

Go figure that the current government "misplaced" $1B in funds, "accidentally" transfered $4B extra funds to various provinces (Quebec got several billion extra, IIRC, which is not surprising considering where Chretien is from...)

	08-04-2002 12:04									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Would someone mind explaining me why the government/Queen actually needs to own every single piece of land in Canada?

The federal government exercises ultimate sovereignty over its demesne, thus "owning" it. If the government wished, it could expropriate every single acre of land (after having passed the required Amendments and laws).

	08-04-2002 12:04									#23
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse They aren't British monuments: the Queen is Queen of Canada too.

Is not. This is one of the loopholes I've talked about.

The Queen has been to Canada once in her life (or was it twice?).

We don't need her, she's not Canadian, let's amputate our ties to her.

	08-04-2002 12:06									#24
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Cost-benefit analysis. Now. Then you have to ask Canadians whether or not they feel the costs (if any) are greater than the immaterial benefits they feel they enjoy due to our constitutional status.

	08-04-2002 12:06									#25
	Re: Re: Re: Why is Canada still a constitutional monarchy? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Asher Like having the Queen actually own every piece of land in Canada. That's ridiculous, and shouldn't be.

That's a technicality though surely and only applies to public land?
When the British royals had to budget down recently it wasn't bits of Canada they were getting rid of (unless they did try and the US just didn't meet the reserve price )

quote: Originally posted by Asher Says who? What republic-related expenses would be added? We've paying the cost for republic-related expenses on top of the useless symbolic monarchy expenses. Why oh why?

Says common sense I would have thought ... Can you really see the government suddenly freeing up funds for public health when they have the excuse (real or not) to spend it on the "new" head of state?
Maybe Canadian politicians are different from the rest of the worlds but I wouldn't bank on them being that different...

	08-04-2002 12:07									#26
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About the only big cost is the G-G and L-Gs, but if we got rid of the Queen, we might very well end up with a system that still has a G-G by another name (e.g. a Prime Minister and a President like many other nations).

The cost of trying to make the change would be horrendous. Things of how many Royal Commissions it would take. Think about how long we would be arguing over this change.

We have enough problems in Canada without opening this can of worms.

	08-04-2002 12:07									#27
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Cost-benefit analysis. Now. Then you have to ask Canadians whether or not they feel the costs (if any) are greater than the immaterial benefits they feel they enjoy due to our constitutional status.

Costs: >$1
Benefits: $0

Therefore, it is wise to get rid of it.

	08-04-2002 12:08									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Is not. This is one of the loopholes I've talked about. The Queen has been to Canada once in her life (or was it twice?). We don't need her, she's not Canadian, let's amputate our ties to her.

She's Queen of Canada whether or not she's here. She's Queen of Scotland and Wales and N. Ireland and Australia and N. Zealand etc. all at the same time. Monuments to the monarchy in Canada are Canadian monuments by default.

	08-04-2002 12:09									#29
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Why is Canada still a constitutional monarchy? Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by ravagon Says common sense I would have thought ... Can you really see the government suddenly freeing up funds for public health when they have the excuse (real or not) to spend it on the "new" head of state? Maybe Canadian politicians are different from the rest of the worlds but I wouldn't bank on them being that different...

They already SPEND it on our head of state, Chretien.

There's no new money to spend by cutting symbolic ties to Britain. But there is money to be saved.

	08-04-2002 12:10									#30
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The federal government exercises ultimate sovereignty over its demesne, thus "owning" it. If the government wished, it could expropriate every single acre of land (after having passed the required Amendments and laws).

And it has such great power for what reason?