08-04-2002 12:10									#31
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Chrétien isn't our head of state.

	08-04-2002 12:10									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc And it has such great power for what reason?

I was talking about your government.

	08-04-2002 12:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Asher What's 100M here, 100M there? It's all small beans. Go figure that the current government "misplaced" $1B in funds, "accidentally" transfered $4B extra funds to various provinces (Quebec got several billion extra, IIRC, which is not surprising considering where Chretien is from...)

Bah. That's nothing. The Australian government recently revealed that they'd lost several billion dollars (Aussie dollars of course so not that much in global terms ) on speculating on their own currency...
Now there's brains for you ...

	08-04-2002 12:11									#34
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse She's Queen of Canada whether or not she's here. She's Queen of Scotland and Wales and N. Ireland and Australia and N. Zealand etc. all at the same time. Monuments to the monarchy in Canada are Canadian monuments by default.

KH, apparently you don't understand.

I don't consider her my Queen. She's Queen by mere technicalities, that doesn't count.

That's my whole argument here. You're saying we should keep the Queen because she's our Queen and it "only" costs $100M or so. I'm here saying she's not our Queen because she doesn't give a damn about us, can't do anythign to us, and costs us a whopping $100M or so to do nothing.

	08-04-2002 12:12									#35
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Chrétien isn't our head of state.

But he WOULD be if we ditched the monarchy tie. Follow along, KH...

	08-04-2002 12:14									#36
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The major question here is obviously one of sentiment, Asher. There's no arguing you out of your feelings towards the monarchy, and the most recent polls show that the majority of Canadians are in favour of the monarchy. In such an irrational type of decision (either way), public feeling is all that counts.

	08-04-2002 12:15									#37
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Grrr, the whole of Canada needs to smacking.

	08-04-2002 12:15									#38
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I was talking about your government.

Our government doesn't own ever square inch of the US and this is the second thread that you've mentioned that the Canadian government "owning" all of Canada. I was merely curious why the Canadian people have granted thier government such powers.

	08-04-2002 12:15									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm here saying she's not our Queen because she doesn't give a damn about us, can't do anythign to us, and costs us a whopping $100M or so to do nothing.

But the offices of the G-G and L-Gs, representing the Queen, does provide a theorectical check and balance, on the Canadian political system.

The G-Gs and L-Gs can call an election at anytime, even if the ruling party doesn't want one. That hasn't happened in Canada, but IIRC it has happened in Australia.

I believe the G-G in theory can also refuse to sign a bill.

While these are theorectical checks, they checks on parliaments power nonetheless.

	08-04-2002 12:16									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai But the offices of the G-G and L-Gs, representing the Queen, does provide a theorectical check and balance, on the Canadian political system. The G-Gs and L-Gs can call an election at anytime, even if the ruling party doesn't want one. That hasn't happened in Canada, but IIRC it has happened in Australia. I believe the G-G in theory can also refuse to sign a bill. While these are theorectical checks, they checks on parliaments power nonetheless.

Nonsense.
The last time the G-G tried to exercise power there was such an uproar that you might as well have kicked the King in the nads.

He can't do anything. At all. Theoretical means nothing when in the real world he'd be booed and ignored.

	08-04-2002 12:17									#41
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Come on, you guys must be looking forward to King Charles as much as we are here in Australia

	08-04-2002 12:18									#42
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At the same time, we must reform the senate.

Right now the Canadian senate is completely useless. We pay the 105 senators big salaries so they can vacation in Mexico most of the year (true story), and they have the power to delay bills by 90 days. Booyah! More wastes of money!

Somebody needs to get into the federal government who understands that money isn't free and if we're going to be paying high taxes we'd better see something for it.

	08-04-2002 12:24									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Asher At the same time, we must reform the senate. Right now the Canadian senate is completely useless. We pay the 105 senators big salaries so they can vacation in Mexico most of the year (true story), and they have the power to delay bills by 90 days. Booyah! More wastes of money! Somebody needs to get into the federal government who understands that money isn't free and if we're going to be paying high taxes we'd better see something for it.

I agree with you on the Senate (I of course being an american), but don't see why the monarchy as it is now is a big deal

Jon Miller

	08-04-2002 12:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Our government doesn't own ever square inch of the US and this is the second thread that you've mentioned that the Canadian government "owning" all of Canada. I was merely curious why the Canadian people have granted thier government such powers.

Your government does, in the final analysis, own every square inch of land in the US, every single trinket contained therein and every person in it.

I thought you knew your Macchiavelli?

	08-04-2002 12:26									#45
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Interesting site on the current state of Canadian Politics:
http://www.islandnet.com/~luree/politics.html

Another thing about the Canadian senate for which many people don't know:
The Prime Minister appoints whoever he wants to the senate to represent any certain province that requires a senator. Which mean his cronies get appointed. Not only this, but they're in the senate until they die or become 75 years old (or is it 85?).

Recently, Alberta voted for a senator replacement for one retiring. Naturally, you'd think Chretien would simply appoint the people Alberta had voted for. But no, he appointed someone completely different. Someone with rather liberal views, too...

	08-04-2002 12:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Our government doesn't own ever square inch of the US and this is the second thread that you've mentioned that the Canadian government "owning" all of Canada. I was merely curious why the Canadian people have granted thier government such powers.

Nobody granted the Queen these powers. Her ancestors took them, and then in an ultimately losing bid to hang onto power, they whittled them away to nothing. It worked like this ...

At one time there was a tough son of a b!tch who was so feared he could do whatever he wanted. He wanted to call himself king and say "everything is mine and I'll do what I damn well please with it". So he did. Of course, he wasn't so tough that he could enforce his will without help and help he had in the form of a bunch of nasty, blood thirsty sidekicks. His main cronies got to call themselves Dukes. Their flunkies were Earls and so on down to the serfs. Who fed everyone. And cleaned up.

Eventually, the king's descendants weren't tough enough to keep themselves at the top of the heap. The Dukes and Earls forced the king to sign a piece of paper agreeing to constrain some of his powers. They were still his powers, but he agreed to only exercise them in certain ways (the alternate was a war he didn't think he could win, so he signed). This trend continued. The Dukes and Earls got some of their own when the merchant classes started to get enough power to threaten the ex-cronies power base. Thus was born the House of Lords / House of Commons system. The king, Dukes and Earls "decided" to listen to these new bodies' advice on a whole host of things for the same reason the king had earlier - the alternative was a fight they didn't know they could win.

What they started "advising" the King to do was to delegate a lot of his power to them. It was still his power, but he "let" them decide how to exercise it. Again, the alternate for the king was to try to stop them. By this point, that just wasn't in the cards the king had left to play. The same thing eventually happened to the merchants and after a few more iterations it got to the point that every adult in the entire system had a say in advising the king.

This was a slow process, and in the beginning a lot of what people said to the king was actually advice. But eventually, through the centuries, the king had less and less ability to say no. Until we get to today and Queen Elizabeth II who has really no ability to say no left at all.

So we end up with a situation where the person who has legal sovereignity is really just a conduit for the will of the people. And it isn't really that bad. Think of it as a system that evolved over time to ensure that everyone who is effected by the exercise of power got a say in how that power is exercised (or in other words, a method of keeping society away from a situation where the king gets strung up from a lamp-post by pissed off serfs).

Now all this seems obvious and trite. But the weird thing is, it is the basis of Canadian law.

	08-04-2002 12:36									#47
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Your government does, in the final analysis, own every square inch of land in the US, every single trinket contained therein and every person in it.

Legally, the government would have to go to court to declare emminent domain and pay fair market value for the property it wanted to exercise direct, as opposed to indirect, control over.

Echinda: From your description, it sounds like it is time for Canada to grow up and become an independent nation.

	08-04-2002 12:36									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Nonsense. The last time the G-G tried to exercise power there was such an uproar that you might as well have kicked the King in the nads. He can't do anything. At all. Theoretical means nothing when in the real world he'd be booed and ignored.

When was that?

The GG does have the legal power and if the GG did call an election it would be upheld by the courts.

	08-04-2002 12:38									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai When was that? The GG does have the legal power and if the GG did call an election it would be upheld by the courts.

IIRC, it was in the 1930s. I can't recall the specific details because my brain's been fried over the past two years.

	08-04-2002 12:41									#50
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I don't know anything about that. Any general information? Did the GG say he was going to call an election and then retracted his statement due to public pressure or was it the courts ruled he could not?

	08-04-2002 12:43									#51
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IIRC (which I may not be), the Governor General was going to appoint a new Prime Minister, but the public became so enraged they backed off and curled into the fetal position, and they haven't used their power since.

	08-04-2002 12:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Legally, the government would have to go to court to declare emminent domain and pay fair market value for the property it wanted to exercise direct, as opposed to indirect, control over

No, it wouldn't. It could alter the constitution till it was able to exercise eminent domain without payment. Note that the courts are an element of the government.

	08-04-2002 12:47									#53
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse No, it wouldn't. It could alter the constitution till it was able to exercise eminent domain without payment. Note that the courts are an element of the government.

I fail to see such an ammendment would get past the states, who are more directly influence by the wishes of thier people.

	08-04-2002 12:49									#54
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That's because under the American system the states are part of the federal government where the amendment process is concerned. Distributed sovereignty doesn't mean that it can't be exercised or that it doesn't exist; it just provides more hurdles to jump over.

	08-04-2002 12:51									#55
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So let me summarize the reasons for not becoming a republic as cited in this thread:

	08-04-2002 12:53									#56
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You've got it. And if it was costing us enough, I'd cut it too.

	08-04-2002 12:54									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Nobody granted the Queen these powers. Her ancestors took them, and then in an ultimately losing bid to hang onto power, they whittled them away to nothing. It worked like this ... Now all this seems obvious and trite. But the weird thing is, it is the basis of Canadian law.

Not too weird at all. Everything is held by grant of the Crown. Then divided and subdivided and sectioned and finally condoed. That's it! The final product of the constitutional monarchy, the condo!

KH is going a little too far in insisting that this sovereign power is very real at all. Fact is, people would be stringing the politicians up from lamp posts were they to try to behave in such a totalitarian manner.

There are however extensive amounts of land that have never been granted or otherwise sold. They still belong to the crown in every sence of the word. Well, maybe the natives have something to say about it...

	08-04-2002 12:55									#58
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I'm not suggesting any gvernment would be able to (in the real world) pull that kind of crap without getting forcibly booted out of office; I'm pointing out that "sovereignty" means just that: ultimate authority.

	08-04-2002 12:56									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Echinda: From your description, it sounds like it is time for Canada to grow up and become an independent nation.

I think of it like DNA. Sure, DNA has all sorts of useless bits that are left over from the evolutionary process. But it works. So why mess with it unless you're aboslutely certain you know what you are doing.

And looking around, the only thing I'm absolutely certain of is that people have not yet figured enough out for me to trust them to mess with it.

Same goes for Canada's constitution.

	08-04-2002 12:56									#60
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Plus, we get to feel superior to the US, and there's a chance I'll be appointed to the Senate...