08-04-2002 12:58									#61
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People wonder why Alberta complains about the Federal Government all the time.

No wonder Chretien doesn't campaign here, backwards logic doesn't work here.

	08-04-2002 13:00									#62
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Ahh, the Senate. Many a day I've dreamt of being a senator. A useless functionary with no purpose who can't be got rid of because everyone is afraid you might replaced with something worse. Heaven.

	08-04-2002 13:01									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda because everyone is afraid you might replaced with something worse

Now that's Canadian.

	08-04-2002 13:02									#64
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No wonder you guys keep electing Chretien.

	08-04-2002 13:03									#65
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Albertans don't seem to have the capability to see our system as the beautiful piece of artwork it is. If MC Escher had designed a government he'd have ended up with Canada.

	08-04-2002 13:04									#66
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Flip, flip, flip...

It was Lord Byng. 1926.

Byng refused to dissolve a recently elected parliament when King was caught in a scandle and lost a non-confidence motion. Byng invited Meighen to form a government. Meighen did. Meighen's government failed shortly thereafter.

King wiped the floor with Byng and Meighen in the ensuing election.

	08-04-2002 13:05									#67
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See, Asher? The GG did exercise his due authority on behalf of the King. It's simply that minority governments are inherently unstable, especially those formed without the aid of the largest party.

	08-04-2002 13:06									#68
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse See, Asher? The GG did exercise his due authority on behalf of the King. It's simply that minority governments are inherently unstable, especially those formed without the aid of the largest party.

King, not THE King.

	08-04-2002 13:07									#69
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Eh? He defied King and exercised the power granted him in the King's stead.

	08-04-2002 13:08									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Echinda Ahh, the Senate. Many a day I've dreamt of being a senator. A useless functionary with no purpose who can't be got rid of because everyone is afraid you might replaced with something worse. Heaven.

And you get to play those great kazoos (sp?).

	08-04-2002 13:08									#71
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Eh? He defied King and exercised the power granted him in the King's stead.

You don't understand. He was executing a formality that should have simply been done automatically, and he didn't want to do it at first, only after the public roared loud enough did he do it.

	08-04-2002 13:10									#72
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Now that's Canadian.

Ok. So that's what it comes down to. Canada isn't a Republic because you guys are afraid that you will come up with something worse? How disappointing



For my 2 cents worth.


I think most Canadians are afraid that if you start a new government you will find that some of the Provinces will opt out of the new Canada. Maybe try it on their own. From what I see in this thread and others, Canada isn't exactly marching to a unified vision. Some want to go one way while others are wanting to go another. And that can be scary for those who can't see Canada without all the current provinces

	08-04-2002 13:13									#73
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quote: In today's democratic world, the royal prerogative is rarely used. In fact, the last time the royal prerogative was used, was the King-Byng dispute of 1926. In this instance, Governor General Lord Byng refused to dissolve Mackenzie King's Parliament in 1926 and call an election. Lord Byng's decision was influenced by the fact that King, with a minority government, had tried to curtail debate and avoid a defeat in the Commons after a scandal in the Customs Department. This event caused so much controversy that scholars have come to the conclusion that "the controversy over the rightness of the action [of the Crown] is so great as to imperil future use of the discretionary powers". It is therefore, essential that the Crown use its royal prerogative only in certain cases, or loose the support of the public.

As you can see, having this is only a liability. Not only does it cost us money, but it can cost us our sovereignty when and if the Queen is feeling rather *****y on a certain day.

	08-04-2002 13:16									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Ok. So that's what it comes down to. Canada isn't a Republic because you guys are afraid that you will come up with something worse? How disappointing

That's who we are.

quote: For my 2 cents worth. I think most Canadians are afraid that if you start a new government you will find that some of the Provinces will opt out of the new Canada. Maybe try it on their own

On the contrary, our Constitution was altered last in 1982 and nothing happened. Formally going from monarchy to republic would have very little impact on the political landscape, and most provinces are overwhelmingly willing to stay where they are. Even Quebec's given up for at least the next long while.

quote: From what I see in this thread and others, Canada isn't exactly marching to a unified vision. Some want to go one way while others are wanting to go another. And that can be scary for those who can't see Canada without all the current provinces

I like things the way they are. Much more interesting than the blahfest of US politics. You really do overestimate the centrifugal tendencies of the provinces. Quebec came close to the brink 7 years ago, but it's stepped back since then.

	08-04-2002 13:18									#75
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Flip, flip, flip... It was Lord Byng. 1926. Byng refused to dissolve a recently elected parliament when King was caught in a scandle and lost a non-confidence motion. Byng invited Meighen to form a government. Meighen did. Meighen's government failed shortly thereafter. King wiped the floor with Byng and Meighen in the ensuing election.

Thanks for the info, notyoueither.

So Byng had the two choices: call an election or ask another party to form the government. Where does public pressure come into play?

	08-04-2002 13:20									#76
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse That's who we are.

Not everyone, just the same fools who keep electing Chretien & Co.

quote: On the contrary, our Constitution was altered last in 1982 and nothing happened. Formally going from monarchy to republic would have very little impact on the political landscape, and most provinces are overwhelmingly willing to stay where they are. Even Quebec's given up for at least the next long while.

Didn't Quebec refuse to sign that constitution?
And since then, your lovely government has further alienated the Western Provinces. Don't count them on agreeing on everything you guys want.

quote: I like things the way they are. Much more interesting than the blahfest of US politics. You really do overestimate the centrifugal tendencies of the provinces. Quebec came close to the brink 7 years ago, but it's stepped back since then.

You see, this is the problem.
You refuse to acknowledge problems with the system because you're too self-absorbed to see that other regions of the country has many legitimate complaints about how the current system works.

Your attitude is what causes countries to fail. They coast along on a leaking boat until the boat simply begins to sink.

	08-04-2002 13:20									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Ok. So that's what it comes down to. Canada isn't a Republic because you guys are afraid that you will come up with something worse? How disappointing

Why? We haven't seen anything that proves that becoming a republic would make our lives better.

	08-04-2002 13:22									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Thanks for the info, notyoueither. So Byng had the two choices: call an election or ask another party to form the government. Where does public pressure come into play?

He refused to dissolve the government. The public wanted the government dissolved. Under public pressure, he eventually dissolved the government...but not before not doing it because of the "Royal Prerogative".

	08-04-2002 13:22									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Your attitude is what causes countries to fail. They coast along on a leaking boat until the boat simply begins to sink.

Where did you see me claim that Quebec's claims were more legitimate than Alberta's? My only point is that Quebec is far more likely to secede than any other province, as any public opinion poll can tell you.

	08-04-2002 13:24									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Asher He refused to dissolve the government. The public wanted the government dissolved. Under public pressure, he eventually dissolved the government...but not before not doing it because of the "Royal Prerogative".

He only dissolved the replacement government because it failed. It either lost a vote of confidence or it felt unable to continue its duties.

	08-04-2002 13:24									#81
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Where did you see me claim that Quebec's claims were more legitimate than Alberta's?

I never said you did.

quote: My only point is that Quebec is far more likely to secede than any other province, as any public opinion poll can tell you.

That's not what I'm saying.

You're saying the current federal system is perfectly fine.
I'm not.

You don't seem to want to see this from a western perspective, since you admit to only living in Quebec yourself so you wouldn't know what it's like not to have any political sway in the federal government, particularly when you really disagree with how the government is (mis)handling everything.

	08-04-2002 13:26									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I never said you did. That's not what I'm saying. You're saying the current federal system is perfectly fine. I'm not. You don't seem to want to see this from a western perspective, since you admit to only living in Quebec yourself so you wouldn't know what it's like not to have any political sway in the federal government, particularly when you really disagree with how the government is (mis)handling everything.

I'm not saying it's fine; I'm saying that nobody cares enough to do anything about it. Asher, you constantly assert that you have no sway in the government. That's untrue. You have the same amount of sway as any other Canadian citizen of 18 years or older.

	08-04-2002 13:29									#83
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm not saying it's fine;

Yes, you did!

quote: I like things the way they are.

quote: Asher, you constantly assert that you have no sway in the government. That's untrue. You have the same amount of sway as any other Canadian citizen of 18 years or older.

You're sooooo obtuse, you know that?

Alberta's votes may as well be tossed out. It doesn't matter that we consistently vote in someone OTHER than the majority governments. All that we get for it is the cold shoulder from the government. Since they don't NEED our votes, why should they bother doing what the Albertan people want? The needs of Alberta are secondary to the needs of Ontario and Quebec, where their votes come from.

Don't you see that? Open your eyes. Things need to change, before you alienate more people.

	08-04-2002 13:29									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You don't understand. He was executing a formality that should have simply been done automatically, and he didn't want to do it at first, only after the public roared loud enough did he do it.

That's not what happened Asher. Public outcry had nothing to do with it. After the failure of Meighen's government there was no way to form a government in that parliament.

It was King who used the issue in the following election. King painted it as an affront to the people of Canada after the fact. There were no riots over it, however people were receptive to King's campaign.

	08-04-2002 13:30									#85
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So where's the flaw in the system? Donating extra seats to Alberta because they feel ignored is silly. Even Quebec doesn't get that.

	08-04-2002 13:32									#86
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse So where's the flaw in the system? Donating extra seats to Alberta because they feel ignored is silly. Even Quebec doesn't get that.

There are several flaws.
The most obvious is the senate. The senate needs REAL power, and needs to adopt a US-style approach (say 5 seats per province, regardless of population). This helps protect the rights of minority provinces.

The other is the monarchy. It's useless baggage.

	08-04-2002 13:34									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Asher He refused to dissolve the government. The public wanted the government dissolved. Under public pressure, he eventually dissolved the government...but not before not doing it because of the "Royal Prerogative".

A quick search of the web gives says M. King was facing a no confidence vote and asked the GG to dissolve parliament. The GG says no and asks Meighan to form the government, but Meighan loses a no confidence vote four days later. The GG is then forced to call an election (presumably because there are no alternatives)

Rather then public pressure, this suggests that the MPs objectived to Byng's initial decision and refused to support Meighan.

The question is whether this set a precedent? What happened in similar cases after 1926? I can only recall the Clark gov't.

It may well be that it is not that the GG had his knuckles rapped, but rather no opposition party would be willing to let the GG give them power given what happened to Meighan.

This doesn't change the fact that the GG has the power to dissolve parliament and to ask a party to form a government.

	08-04-2002 13:35									#88
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That's not what happened Asher. Public outcry had nothing to do with it. After the failure of Meighen's government there was no way to form a government in that parliament. It was King who used the issue in the following election. King painted it as an affront to the people of Canada after the fact. There were no riots over it, however people were receptive to King's campaign.

It depends how you want to paint it.

There was a very visible public outcry to the power the Governor General held over the situation, which is the entire reason why they haven't flexed muscles since.

	08-04-2002 13:35									#89
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Where did you get the idea that provinces have some sort of special standing? The US was formed by adding together 13 independent entities, 13 almost-countries. Canada wasn't, and thus our system is different than theirs. There's no basis in Canadian law for what you propose, and it's a transparent attempt to simply grab some more power for yourselves. Why should the majority give up political power to such a system? They become 2nd-class citizens.

	08-04-2002 13:37									#90
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Where did you get the idea that provinces have some sort of special standing? The US was formed by adding together 13 independent entities, 13 almost-countries. Canada wasn't, and thus our system is different than theirs. There's no basis in Canadian law for what you propose, and it's a transparent attempt to simply grab some more power for yourselves. Why should the majority give up political power to such a system? They become 2nd-class citizens.

KH, I'm advocating changing the system.
You're saying we can't change the system because "our system doesn't work like that", in so many words.

And I'm getting really sick of that argument that this is a "transparent" attempt to grab power for ourselves.
It's not transparent, it's BLATANT.

Alberta NEEDS more of a say on how things work, since the current federal government admittedly IGNORES what Alberta's needs are because they don't need our votes.

THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE.

The whole concept of a democracy is to have rule of the majority while respecting the rights of the minority. Canada is simply rule of the majority. There is nothing like the US Senate to help protect the rights of the minorities.

What do you propose we do to fix it?