17-04-2002 07:58									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend So what? It doesn't change the fact that from 600AD to 1700AD Europeans were the bigger and badder bastards.

Islam was at it's worst in that period, Europe were minor leagers compared to the Ottomans.

	17-04-2002 08:00									#62
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And as an aside, the original post says throughout history, not 600-1700, so that says volumes about some people's reading comprehension.

	17-04-2002 08:02									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 And as an aside, the original post says throughout history, not 600-1700, so that says volumes about some people's reading comprehension.

As I remember, Islam didn't even exist before 630AD. Maybe someone needs to learn more about history, despite claiming to know everything about history.

	17-04-2002 08:04									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Islam was at it's worst in that period, Europe were minor leagers compared to the Ottomans.

Oh yeah? Worse than Europe? Let's get out the fact and make a comparison.

	17-04-2002 08:07									#65
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Be my guest, but I'm through bashing you for one night.

Next time, say i disagree for this reason, not your a bigotted sh1t because you think that.

Making you look dumb is waaay to easy.

	17-04-2002 08:07									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Dino, the people here needed a splash of water to the face, they got it into their heads that Islam is this happy place where all is good and everyone lives in peace and harmony, and that the rest of the world did all the damage.

It looks to me like both sides are guilty of focusing on thier favored of the two visions of warfare and attitudes toward faith and the enemies of Islam embodied within the Koran.

	17-04-2002 08:10									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Not at all, it's the verdict of History, Islam has consistantly attacked it's non-Islamic neibhors through out history, in fact, the Black slave trade in Africa was intiated by Islam.Yes, lets. No, Mohammed claims that God spoke to him as his last prophet, and added the clever device of saying that he was the last such prohit, so he could never be corected or changed. His notion was to disreguard all of the new testatment to be replaced by his teachings, the Koran. You don't know what you talking about, western Rome fell in the 5th century, Mohammed comes in the 8th century, unless the Islamics had a time machine. Which has nothing to do with the topic. You might add that they were allowed to live in a Muslim state by paying THREE times the taxes of other citizens, a non-Islamic tax. The Christians considered them colaberators (and they are also crazy, but that's another story) so had no problem killing them. We are talking about the biggest bastards in history, they fit the bill. The thread isn't about the possitives, it's about the biggest bastards in History, Islam is it by every criteria you care to name. Oh, and every British monarch and government were exactly the same? Talk about generalizations.

I never said that Islam rose at the same period that the Roman Empire fell. You put words in my mouth.

For centuries after the Roman Empire fell, the Catholic monasteries, and then later, the Islamic cities, preserved the heritage from ancient Greece and ancient Rome.

And you bet that Islam was definitely inspired partially by Christianity, in that Mohhamed saw himself as the continuation, as well as the last, prophet going back to Judahism and Christianity.

	17-04-2002 08:14									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Be my guest, but I'm through bashing you for one night. Next time, say i disagree for this reason, not your a bigotted sh1t because you think that. Making you look dumb is waaay to easy.

So be it. If you can only resolve to insults and lies, then I really pity you. Maybe you are under too much stress, how about seeing a psychiatrist?

	17-04-2002 08:19									#69
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It's nice to know that somebody agrees with me about France.

	17-04-2002 09:20									#70
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And here I thought that you defended Israel because you were morally opposed to terrorism, and now I find you are a anti-Islamic bigot that even argues facts that most historians agree upon (ie, most of Western learning owes a great debt to Islamic saving of Roman and Greek texts).

I think Peacemaker in context to CBS league was right after all.

	17-04-2002 10:10									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Common misconception, Mongol rule was neither oppressive or criminal, in fact, they oppened trade routes to Europe and the west long closed in their brief span of pre-eminence.

They didn't rule all that long. Its the way they murdered their way to empire that gets them that rep I would suppose.

Just ask the dead in city after after city that the Mongols sacked just how unoppressive they were. Millions dead. Hundreds of thousands in Damascus alone. Very unpleasant people even by the standards of Empires over history.

I voted for Russia myself. Pretty nasty under both the Tsars and the Communists. Hard to beat 30 million deaths under Stalin alone.

The Spaniards had unexpected help in their slaughtering. Much of it was unintended. They didn't plan on killing the vast majority of the Amerinds with Small Pox.

	17-04-2002 10:18									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA The total of native Americans in 1492 is roughly estimated at one million. The Mongols killed three million in the Korezim Empire alone!

Where the heck did you get that ludicrous number for the Amerinds. I don't know about1492 but there is no way the one million in all the Americas became a vastly huger number by the time Cortez arived in Mexico. Mexico alone is estimated to have had 25 million at that time. One hundred years later it was down to one million. Mostly due to small pox.

However its true the Mongols were intentionly killing by the millions.

	17-04-2002 10:21									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I'm annoyed by the "scared cow" attitude I see by posters toward the Islamic world, this seems a reflection of the modern era. I stand by what i said, for pure human misery, look no further then those carring a cresent to battle, they brought wars of conquest to three coninents in a very short span. Not all christan states disallowed such things. I never said these guys were sweatharts. Actually, you can continue it foward, but they couldn't compete with Europe on a military bases from about 1600, but not from a lack of trying. Pure nonsense, a massive generalization. Most of the preserved works of anciet Greeks comes from the Monisteris, not Muslims sources, and those monistaries were Christian. Not a matter of spreading, outside of the americas it never really caught on in Asia or Africa. T1t-for-tat semantics. If you want who was first to attack, the honor falls to Islam. I merely stated my opinion, and was bombarded with nonsense. I'm called a bigot for my pick, what hypocracy! People should try to keep personal feelings out of such discussions, or don't waste my time.

I must say I disagree with you

Africa is very christian (not 100% but still)

Jon Miller

	17-04-2002 10:22									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend So be it. If you can only resolve to insults and lies, then I really pity you. Maybe you are under too much stress, how about seeing a psychiatrist?

Your not to smart, are you?

Did you even look at the provided material?

Do you have a clue about Islamic history?

Obviously not.

Someday when you grow up you might.

quote: Originally posted by poly's #1 Islamic appolgist And here I thought that you defended Israel because you were morally opposed to terrorism, and now I find you are a anti-Islamic bigot that even argues facts that most historians agree upon (ie, most of Western learning owes a great debt to Islamic saving of Roman and Greek texts).

I find many things about Islam interesting and of importance, but because I recognize them for what they are does not make me a bigot.

If you took those blinders off you might see it also.

I have no idea why many people here want to bend over and give islam a big kiss on the backside, but I never will.
For all their fine accomplishments they left a blood trail miles wide with a history of aggression and intolernce they extends to this day.

It seems in vogue today to blame Europe and America for the world's problems, and theiren lies Islam's number one problem, and inability to look truthfully at it's past and what it wants, and to blame it's problems on others.

Your the perfect example Imran, and educated man, yet you turn your back on knowledge and fall into retoric and falsehood when anything that shows a bad light on Islam is brought up.

You are the perfect example of what is symptamatic of Islam, blame others for your own short comings, and turn nelson's blind eye to the truth of history.

Transcend is just a fool, so we need not concern ourselves with him, but you should know better.

quote: I think Peacemaker in context to CBS league was right after all.

Yet you thought differently before I dared question Islam.

Shows a lot about your character, or rather, lack of it.

Since Trancend knows so little, I'll hook him up with some sites, which are easy to find BTW, a few clicks on goggle.

A short primer on the arab conquests:
http://w1.xrefer.com/entry/209905

A nice overview of the Ottomans:
http://www.naqshbandi.org/ottomans/history.htm

The effects of Ottoman rule on Albania:
http://www.albanian.com/main/history/ottoman.html

A view of Islamic conquest not white-washed through muslim sources:
http://www.secularislam.org/jihad/

The Muhgul (islamic) conquest of India:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MUGHAL/MUGHAL.HTM

A site about military operations in the Balkans in the early Ottoman days:
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/balkandave/wbmedivl.htm

Again, the net has many such sites, all there to look at.

So spare the Islam was peaceful riff, it's bullsh1t, as was Imran's claim that I'm a bigot because I see through this bull.

	17-04-2002 10:27									#75
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I say China, just because of the question, throughout history. The Chinese have been around twice as long s any other civilization, thus they've had twice the time to be bastards.

After that, it would be impossible to single any group out for exceptional bastardhod among their peers. The Germans, the Slavs, the Aryans, the Bantu, the Arabs, the Mongols, all have great rivers of blood in their history.

	17-04-2002 10:31									#76
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everyone were complete bastards before 1950 or so

and Islam is definitely in the running

but western europe is also as are many other groups

Islam is a very large culture and has had both positive and negative groups

as had many other cultures

I personally think the two (western and islam) were pretty even for those years (6-17)

but recently (19.5+) west has been better

remember Chris that you have to include a lot of russia and germany and the like in the west culture group

comparing Islam to England is not fair

Jon Miller

	17-04-2002 10:33									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I say China, just because of the question, throughout history. The Chinese have been around twice as long s any other civilization, thus they've had twice the time to be bastards. After that, it would be impossible to single any group out for exceptional bastardhod among their peers. The Germans, the Slavs, the Aryans, the Bantu, the Arabs, the Mongols, all have great rivers of blood in their history.

ayh, I think I agree with you

bascially prior to 19th everyone were bastards and China has been arround the longest so ....

Jon Miller

	17-04-2002 10:35									#78
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The Mongols.

Given their numbers and the time, Mongolian atrocities had been unmatched. Combine atrocities by Turko-Mongols (Timur the Lame et al.), and you rack up an even higher body count.

Of course, this is due to incredibly superior technology, more than anything else.

	17-04-2002 10:38									#79
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Chris, singling out Islam and pretending it is somehow exceptional in history is rather ludicrous. The Germanic nations of the post-Roman era were every bit as expansionist and bloody, and they were a heck of a lot more intellerant to boot.

It isn't that what you say about the bloody crecent isn't true. It's that you write as though it is the worst. I'm not sure that worst can truely be quantitified historically.



Or are you just being an American-Boddington?

	17-04-2002 10:41									#80
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quote: A view of Islamic conquest not white-washed through muslim sources: http://www.secularislam.org/jihad/

It might help your case just a bit if you chose sources that were not self-proclaimed anti-islamic.

	17-04-2002 11:48									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Chris, singling out Islam and pretending it is somehow exceptional in history is rather ludicrous. The Germanic nations of the post-Roman era were every bit as expansionist and bloody, and they were a heck of a lot more intellerant to boot. It isn't that what you say about the bloody crecent isn't true. It's that you write as though it is the worst. I'm not sure that worst can truely be quantitified historically. Or are you just being an American-Boddington?

che. I think the main reason he picked Islam is that many here seem to want to ignore it's past and current direction and white wash it. There were many desperately trying to prove that Islam was an enlightented civ that only responded when attacked. That only made him more determined to show them the opposite. They kept listing postive attributes when the thread clearly stated who has been consistently a bastard throughout history. Was Islam any worse than the Chinese or Europeans? I can't answer that because there is no way to go back and compare every single event on both sides. Chris's attack on Islam should have made people actually think about it, but instead they called him a biggot and tried to shift all that they did on the Europeans. I guess its hard for them to admit what they did in the past since they are still behind them in what they do in the current world. The only way a civ is ever going to move on is if they can look back at their history and see the horrible things that they did and not only the horrible things done to them. The Arabs have not been able to do that as far as I can tell. Because of that they will always be in a victim mode and all too willing to justify things like jihad and war. Has the West been able to do this? In most cases yes. But we still have a long way to go to.

As for the actual question of the thread. It's France hands down. They are bastards even when they aren't strong enough to do anyting really bad.

	17-04-2002 11:53									#82
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quote: I have no idea why many people here want to bend over and give islam a big kiss on the backside, but I never will. For all their fine accomplishments they left a blood trail miles wide with a history of aggression and intolernce they extends to this day.

*cough* Christianity.

It if funny that you call Islam the biggest bastards in history when Christianity has done the same things, sometimes worse. Your Christianity bias is showing through.

quote: It seems in vogue today to blame Europe and America for the world's problems, and theiren lies Islam's number one problem, and inability to look truthfully at it's past and what it wants, and to blame it's problems on others. Your the perfect example Imran, and educated man, yet you turn your back on knowledge and fall into retoric and falsehood when anything that shows a bad light on Islam is brought up.

Ironically you portray me as a anti-European and anti-American here . It is so funny, I probably don't have to respond.

quote: You are the perfect example of what is symptamatic of Islam, blame others for your own short comings, and turn nelson's blind eye to the truth of history

You mean like the same in the Christian world, who are responsible for the greatest horrors in the world. After all the Christian world owned about 90% of the world at one time and destroyed, killed, and plundered in the name of colony.

quote: Transcend is just a fool, so we need not concern ourselves with him, but you should know better.

He is obviously more intelligent (especially on history) than you seem to be.

quote: Yet you thought differently before I dared question Islam.

Actually I didn't (check out the forum on the CBS league website), I just didn't want to say it in front of you. But since you've revealed yourself to be a bigot and a collosol moron, I don't care anymore.

quote: Chris, singling out Islam and pretending it is somehow exceptional in history is rather ludicrous. The Germanic nations of the post-Roman era were every bit as expansionist and bloody, and they were a heck of a lot more intellerant to boot. It isn't that what you say about the bloody crecent isn't true. It's that you write as though it is the worst. I'm not sure that worst can truely be quantitified historically.

EXACTLY! Islamic conquest was in no way worse than European wars of conquest (um... Crusades anyone? What about the 30 Years War?).

quote: Or are you just being an American-Boddington?

Only problem is that he believes his ignorant babblings. A trip to my ignore list is forseeable in the near future.

	17-04-2002 11:57									#83
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Spray, his first post:

quote: Islam is the answer. For almost 1400 years they have been constant aggressors and bald faced conqerors, and to this day can't get along with anyone who isn't Muslim. No other culture spends more time and effort on racial hatred and training then Islamic states. A history of misery, oppression and conquest.

Does this seem he believes they did anything good? He also seems to throw away anything good they did. Historials agree on their good points, but Chris doesn't.

That shows him to a bigot.

In a bastard test, you have to also look at the good, because the difference between good and bad makes a bastard. That is why I picked the Mongols. Little good and lots bad.

	17-04-2002 11:57									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Only problem is that he believes his ignorant babblings. A trip to my ignore list is forseeable in the near future.

I'm not so sure. I remember his postings in the past being a lot more balanced, but recently he's gone into hyperbole mode.

	17-04-2002 11:58									#85
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So you think obvious troll?

I dunno... with the whole WTC thing and Israel he's gone off the deep end.

	17-04-2002 13:12									#86
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I voted for other and thought Israel. But then I changed my mind... Israel has in fact only been bastards for 54 years. England and Spain were bastards for several hundred years. Therefore I would like to change my vote to a tie between England and Spain.

	17-04-2002 13:22									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Spray, his first post: quote: Islam is the answer. For almost 1400 years they have been constant aggressors and bald faced conqerors, and to this day can't get along with anyone who isn't Muslim. No other culture spends more time and effort on racial hatred and training then Islamic states. A history of misery, oppression and conquest. Does this seem he believes they did anything good? He also seems to throw away anything good they did. Historials agree on their good points, but Chris doesn't. That shows him to a bigot.

I´m with you 100% on this Imran. It´s clear that Chris has been convinced by the anti-islam propaganda that has replaced the anti-communist propaganda of the ´50s...

I know he would go through the roof if I or anyone else started shouting that "jews are by nature evil and that they want to control the world" based on Israels actions lately.

	17-04-2002 13:48									#88
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Ok Imran. Chris is a biggot and you hold all the answers.

	17-04-2002 13:51									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Kamrat X I know he would go through the roof if I or anyone else started shouting that "jews are by nature evil and that they want to control the world" based on Israels actions lately.

Exactly what do you think happens daily here? Ooops thats just me being fooled by the Jew media I suppose.

	17-04-2002 13:55									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So you think obvious troll? I dunno... with the whole WTC thing and Israel he's gone off the deep end.

You support terrotists and deny that the Pals have any responsibity at all for the problems over there. Who has gone off the deep end?