23-04-2002 00:20									#31
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quote: The lebensraum claim is correct only when you talk about those individuals who decide to settle in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip because of ideology, and the Israeli goverments until Rabin.

Same as with the Germans during the 1930s and 1940s huh?

	23-04-2002 00:21									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin And why should one not say the same about you? You clearly, a lot more clearly than me as I see it (even if I'm hardly the best judge), has judged the pals.

The difference is, I'm only going by the record, YOUR not.

quote: Your just making pathetic arguments about who did that and so on.

Denying history on your part changes nothing.
The truth is not "pathetic", in fact, your attitude is what has kept this problem from being solved.

quote: That most of the people in the area wasn't born in 1948 totally passes you by as you judge a entire people.

So, those people deserve rights to land they never lived on?
You yourself just said they wern't EVER here in 48.

quote: And it's not like there's other facts (as you call your selection of historical interpetations) that says quite the opposite. I've had this conversation a million times over and it's unproductive and narrow-minded and is a part of the entire problem.

If you look, I was answering Paikis' troll in kind, a troll you had no problem with.
That indicates narrow-mindedness on YOUR part, not mine.
Untill the "blame Israel" nonsense stops, this will NEVER end.

quote: I don't take sides against pals or jews. I take sides against goverments. What you're up to is something else.

Governments ARE people, you foolish man.
Do you truly believe a government exisits of itseldf, as a living thing?
Israel is a democracy, it's government is it's people.
Palestine's government is Arafat, an admitted terrorist and murderer, and his people support him, just ask them, as many journalists have.

quote: Mars is pretty nice this time of the year...

I thought it might be.

	23-04-2002 00:21									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 There is less then 10% deviation from the UN partion plan and the 67 border.

55% of the land was given to less than 1/3rd the population, who lived on only about 15% of the land. In the proposed Jewish state, the majority of the land was Arab owned, and a considerable minority (more than 40%) of the people were Arabs.

	23-04-2002 00:25									#34
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However, at a certain point it becomes insane trying to get at the root cause, and determine original blame. Hell, we all know it was Britain that screwed everything up. Since then both sides have been at each other's throats.

Revenge is not a viable basis for security. It is only by ceasing to humiliate the Palestinians that they will begin to lose the anger that has them hurling their bodies at Israelis. Israel cannot make peace with a beaten dog.

	23-04-2002 00:32									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As they had a right to do. Furthermore, the US originally abstained from the drawing up of the Partition Plan because we knew it would lead to civil war.

So, it's OK to defy the UN.
You just justified Israel's postion vs the resolutions, congratulations.

quote: You have your years wrong. The Palestinian-Jewish Civil War began in Novermber, 1947, and lasted until March of 1948 (with the exception of Jerusalem, where Palestinians fought to hold on).

Sorry Che, but no i don't.
Israel's war of independance begins on the last day the British Mandate ends.
In fact, the first real fighting was before that, january 1948, at a place called Kfar Szold, a village in the upper part of gallilee.

quote: After that, the Israelis began occupying as much of Palestine as they could grab before the Brits left.

Ha Ha Ha Ha, what a selective historian yo are!
It was the Pals who were doinfg that!

quote: The "genocidal" war, so-called because one commander of an insignificant military force with no support called for throwing the Jewis into the sea, was really a land grab by all countries. Everyone wanted a piee of Palestine, only Israel and Jordan were strong enough to hold on. (Egypt only got a piece because the UN insisted Israel withdraw from part of the Gaza area).

Funny, they did an interesting of impression of genocide if they didn't mean it, considering the settlements they managed to wipe out, like Shaar Hagolan for example.

quote: All told, there were no good guys in that war (but there were lots of innocents), and the Jews weren't fighting to save their lives. There were massacres on both sides, expulsions on both sides, etc.

Ha ha ha ha!
They sure as hell were fighting for their lives, and they were ATTACKED by FIVE arab states, and kicked them OUT!

quote: Some Pals left like that. Most left because of the fighting. After the fighting was over, the remainder, in an ironic twist of rhetoric, were herded into the sea where they were rescued by Egyptian fishing boats. In Dier Yassin, they were simply massacred. In Lydah, they were marched through the desert with no food or water and expleed from the Israeli conquered territory. Many died on that march.

Such is the fate of those who would try to murder their neihbor for their neibhor's land and lives.

quote: The major cause of refugees during the war was the fighting, pure and simple. Neither calls for Arabs leaving and waiting for the reconquest of Israel nor the news of Israel massacres of Arabs were equal to the fear of being killed between two clashing armies.

Read more, Che, read more.

	23-04-2002 00:35									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara However, at a certain point it becomes insane trying to get at the root cause, and determine original blame. Hell, we all know it was Britain that screwed everything up. Since then both sides have been at each other's throats.

Very good.

quote: Revenge is not a viable basis for security. It is only by ceasing to humiliate the Palestinians that they will begin to lose the anger that has them hurling their bodies at Israelis. Israel cannot make peace with a beaten dog.

The only way this stops is if the Pals stop the terror.
NOT the other way around.

	23-04-2002 00:37									#37
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But can anyone answer why they still are doing it?

RAH

	23-04-2002 00:39									#38
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The terror?

They see that world opinion is agianst Israel, so they continue it.

	23-04-2002 00:44									#39
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I would think that any new settlers would have to be a bit crazy or fanatical.

RAH

	23-04-2002 00:48									#40
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quote: All told, there were no good guys in that war (but there were lots of innocents), and the Jews weren't fighting to save their lives. There were massacres on both sides, expulsions on both sides, etc.

Hmm..
In Deir Yassin, the "massacare" involved mostly armed Iraqi troops.

In the massacare of the jewish medical convoy, days later, only doctors and nurses were slain.

Sure... equal

quote: And of course, you ignore that fact that Egypt was also fighting Jordan.

Ok, please please please give me a source. I haven't met it.

quote: Israeli troops outnumbered Arab troops at all points during the '48 wars.

Source?


May 48
Military Aircraft: Israel - 2 Arab - 45
Supplies Aircraft: Israel - 32 Arab - 43
Artillery: Israel - 45 Arab - 228
Armored Vehicales: Isr - 15 Arab - 237
Light tanks: Isr - 13 Arab - 52
Battalions: Isr - 27 Arab 36
General forces: Israel 32,000 Arab 32,500

Beri Michalson, Abraham Zohar, Effi Melzer; The Struggle for Israel's Security; Easy Printing, Israel, 1999.
ISBN: 965-222-867-2

	23-04-2002 00:49									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar ...and the Israelis will finish it.

No. UBL, or someone else, will finish it when he sets off a nuclear bomb in Tel Aviv.

This is why Israel's wars of vengence are not the path forward. Israel must surrender what was taken by force or the violence will continue in perpetuity. Only fairness and dignity will lead to respect and peace.

	23-04-2002 00:49									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 So, it's OK to defy the UN. You just justified Israel's postion vs the resolutions, congratulations.

It's impossible to defy a non-binding recommendation. Everyone seems to treat the Partition Plan like it was carved in stone. It wasn't. It had no force of law, it wasn't binding. It was a suggestion. Britain submitted the problem to the UN with the caveat that any recommendation be accepteble to both sides. It wasn't, therefore it failed to meet the legal authority in the region's conditions.

quote: Sorry Che, but no i don't. Israel's war of independance begins on the last day the British Mandate ends. In fact, the first real fighting was before that, january 1948, at a place called Kfar Szold, a village in the upper part of gallilee.Ha

Yes you do. The Palestinian revolt began November 22, 1947. Paletinain resitence collapsed in March of 1948. Dier Yassin happened in April of 1948, after fighting everywhere outside of Jeruslame had ceased.

quote: Ha Ha Ha, what a selective historian yo are! It was the Pals who were doinfg that! Funny, they did an interesting of impression of genocide if they didn't mean it, considering the settlements they managed to wipe out, like Shaar Hagolan for example.

The Pals had no central authority nor any viable military force to do this. The Pals did not have a monopoly on massacres. The Israelis massacred dozesn of Arab villages, the worst being Dier Yassin and the Lyddah Death March. In any event, you are taking what happened during the Civil War, and moving it over into the wars of conquest.

quote: Ha ha ha ha! They sure as hell were fighting for their lives, and they were ATTACKED by FIVE arab states, and kicked them OUT!

Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt. Lebabnon attacked one Jewish settlement (which may or may not have been abandoned), then occupied Arab West Galilee. In December, after breaking the forth truce, Israel attacked them and annexed the West Galiliee. Syria tried to take territory it considered theirs based on French maps from the mandate (Britain and France never settleed the disposition of the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee. Their attack was stopped early by Moshe Dyan and an old howitzer, and Syria sat out the rest of the war, until attacked by Israel later. Syria did attack an abandoned settlement. Iraq and Jordan occupied the West Bank, as per the agreement between Israel and Jordan, and only fought the Israelis where they were attacked. Egypt sent half its forces to try and thwart Jordanian annexation and the other half north towards Ashdod. This is the one country that did actually attack the Israelis. They were soundly defeated. After that, there were a series of truces, each one Israel broke (for tactical reasons as Eli likes to keep pointing out, i.e., the tactic of destroyng your opposition one by one and grabbing as much land as possible).

quote: Read more, Che, read more.

The more I read, the more I despise Israel. Since I want to keep a belief in a basic decency of humanity, I can only read about Israel in small doses. I would suggest that you study the new Israeli historians, who have called into question all of the Israeli creation story myths. Israeli's underdogness and defensiveness are no more true than George Washington chopping down the apple tree.

	23-04-2002 00:50									#43
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quote: Same as with the Germans during the 1930s and 1940s huh?

Interesting, I didn't know Germans settled in countries sorrounding them.

I guess that must mean that you're ignorant of history.

Plus, you've already said that you consider WFHerman's long speech completely true. So I'm not surprised.

	23-04-2002 00:50									#44
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quote: 55% of the land was given to less than 1/3rd the population, who lived on only about 15% of the land. In the proposed Jewish state, the majority of the land was Arab owned, and a considerable minority (more than 40%) of the people were Arabs.

in the partition plan , exchanges of populations were planned.

I really like the fact you mention 55%
when more than half of the territory of the Mandate was desert. guess who got it?

	23-04-2002 00:52									#45
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IMO, It's too bad the US supports Israel. If it didn't they wouldn't win wars, go for expansion and settling the territories. They would be willing to compromise.
Palestinians have against them US primarily and then Israel.

	23-04-2002 00:54									#46
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Yeah, paik... they'd have been annihilated in 48 or 67 or 73 or 82... that would have solved the problem, right?

	23-04-2002 00:55									#47
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you see things in black and white.

	23-04-2002 00:56									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MrBaggins Yeah, paik... they'd have been annihilated in 48 or 67 or 73 or 82... that would have solved the problem, right?

It would have solved the problem of ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the racsist state.

	23-04-2002 00:59									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 The difference is, I'm only going by the record, YOUR not. Denying history on your part changes nothing. The truth is not "pathetic", in fact, your attitude is what has kept this problem from being solved.

So there's a record? Denying what and whos history? Oh I don't feel for giving a crack cource in historical metodhology...

quote: So, those people deserve rights to land they never lived on? You yourself just said they wern't EVER here in 48.

I have only spoken about the west bank and the Gaza strip, people (pals) live there you know...

quote: That indicates narrow-mindedness on YOUR part, not mine. Untill the "blame Israel" nonsense stops, this will NEVER end.

Again you're confusing things. The conflicts are the result of both sides. Of course sometimes one side is more guilty than the other, but overall no.

quote: Governments ARE people, you foolish man. Do you truly believe a government exisits of itseldf, as a living thing?

A interesting theoretical problem. But you clearly must see that there's a difference in assesing a goverments policies and a entire people. If i start to blaim all americans for a action by Bush people here get nuts. And probably rightly so.

quote: Israel is a democracy, it's government is it's people. Palestine's government is Arafat, an admitted terrorist and murderer, and his people support him, just ask them, as many journalists have.

Yes Israel has a democratic system. That's nice. That I like democracy doesn't mean that I must like the people that are chosen to rule in a democracy (that's kind of a democratic right). Arafat is a ****er and the palestinian support for him is possibly understandable but nothing I like. Just as I don't like Sharon (or Le Pen). That i don't like Sharon and Arafat doesn't per definition means that I hate Israelis and Pals.

	23-04-2002 00:59									#50
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quote: Dier Yassin happened in April of 1948, after fighting everywhere outside of Jeruslame had ceased.

Incorrect.
Dier Yassin was part of the fighting of Jerusalem, as it was a village outlooking on a supply route to Jerusalem, that was necessary for Israel to keep control of, lest Jerusalem surrendered.

quote: The Pals had no central authority nor any viable military force to do this. The Pals did not have a monopoly on massacres.

Sure they did.

1922.
1929.
1930s.

quote: The Israelis massacred dozesn of Arab villages, the worst being Dier Yassin and the Lyddah Death March.

Again, there was a massacare in Dier Yassin, but it followed a tough fight.

And I haven't found Israeli references to Lyddah, or any refernces to it infact.

quote: In any event, you are taking what happened during the Civil War, and moving it over into the wars of conquest.

Civil war??

quote: Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Egypt. Lebabnon attacked one Jewish settlement (which may or may not have been abandoned), then occupied Arab West Galilee. In December, after breaking the forth truce, Israel attacked them and annexed the West Galiliee. Syria tried to take territory it considered theirs based on French maps from the mandate (Britain and France never settleed the disposition of the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee. Their attack was stopped early by Moshe Dyan and an old howitzer, and Syria sat out the rest of the war, until attacked by Israel later. Syria did attack an abandoned settlement. Iraq and Jordan occupied the West Bank, as per the agreement between Israel and Jordan, and only fought the Israelis where they were attacked. Egypt sent half its forces to try and thwart Jordanian annexation and the other half north towards Ashdod. This is the one country that did actually attack the Israelis. They were soundly defeated. After that, there were a series of truces, each one Israel broke (for tactical reasons as Eli likes to keep pointing out, i.e., the tactic of destroyng your opposition one by one and grabbing as much land as possible).

A) I'll look for my own version of things tommorow. The attacks were (very poorly) coordinated.

B) We only broke the last 2 truces.

C) When the strategical fighting is over your life, you're allowed to use tactical measures.

	23-04-2002 01:00									#51
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quote: Hamas defines the transition to the stage of Jihad "for the liberation of all of Palestine" as a personal religious duty incumbent upon every Muslim. At the same time, it utterly rejects any political arrangement that would entail the relinquishment of any part of Palestine, which for it is tantamount to a surrender of part of Islam. These positions are reflected in the Covenant, and of course in its activities. The central goal of Hamas is the establishment of an Islamic state in all of Palestine. The immediate means to achieve this goal is the escalation of the armed struggle, and ultimately all-out Jihad, with the participation not only of Palestinian Muslims but of the entire Islamic world.

http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=13

There's your "peaceful" Palestinains.

Again Che, you really must get your nose out of leftist propaganda, Israel was born in battle, a battle they won vs overwhelming odds.

I despise the Islamic world for their race hatered and aversion to murder as a solution to EVERYTHING.

Che, you crack me up, your trying to make it seem like Israel stated the war in 48! HA HA HA HA

Did they also pay for the Arab states to stage an attack for thier "land grab"?

	23-04-2002 01:02									#52
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 They would be willing to compromise.

They tried to compromise and thier efforts were answered with a suicide bombing campaign.

	23-04-2002 01:03									#53
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quote: Egypt sent half its forces to try and thwart Jordanian annexation and the other half north towards Ashdod. This ... They were soundly defeated.

@ Egypt.
According to the UN partition plan i'm an evil evil land grabbing settler. Whoopee!

	23-04-2002 01:03									#54
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quote: It would have solved the problem of ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the racsist state.

truth comes to light.
we obviously need to be annihilated , so that we will clear from our sins of self-defence.
like the witches that had to sink to be exhonerated.

	23-04-2002 01:05									#55
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Here is more fun, the "Hamas" charter:

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isreport/hamas.html

Let's see any of you strike a deal with them.

There avowed purpose is to destroy Israel, they SAY so.

	23-04-2002 01:06									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=13 There's your "peaceful" Palestinains. Again Che, you really must get your nose out of leftist propaganda, Israel was born in battle, a battle they won vs overwhelming odds. I despise the Islamic world for their race hatered and aversion to murder as a solution to EVERYTHING. Che, you crack me up, your trying to make it seem like Israel stated the war in 48! HA HA HA HA

Israel did start the war by seizing the Pals' land and declaring a Jewish nation. Would you expect the Pals to sit back and allow their country to be stolen? And sorry to upset your David v. Goliath mythology but the odds weren't that overwhelming with help from France, the UK and later the US.

I bet you think Charles de Gaulle liberated France also.

	23-04-2002 01:06									#57
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quote: It would have solved the problem of ethnic cleansing perpetrated by the racsist state.

Please cite examples

	23-04-2002 01:07									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Hmm.. In Deir Yassin, the "massacre" involved mostly armed Iraqi troops.

Since the Iraqis didn't enter Palestine 'till later, not true. It was a neutral village, that had a non-agression agreement with neighboring Jewish villages. It's crime was to sit along the Tel Aviv, Jerusalem corridor. Men women and children were murdered there. Stop trying to justify it or pretend it wasn't that bad. It was a war crime. Deal with it.

quote: In the massacare of the jewish medical convoy, days later, only doctors and nurses were slain.

And that was horrible, and there is no justification for that.

quote: quote: And of course, you ignore that fact that Egypt was also fighting Jordan. Ok, please please please give me a source. I haven't met it.

Get Flapan's, The Birth of Israel. Egypt sent two brigades to Palestine, one towards Ashdod, the other towards the West Bank (where there should have been no Israelis to fight). Later, when Israel attacked these troops, Jordan refused to resupply them and let them get destroyed. 'Fighting' was the wrong word to use, but it captured the hostility better than saying they blocked each other and tried to cut each other's supply and let the Israelis finish them off (Egypt did this to Jordan, and vice versa).

quote: quote: Israeli troops outnumbered Arab troops at all points during the '48 wars. Source?

Various sources. Flapan, the US government, Bayliss Thomas.

quote: May 48 General forces: Israel 32,000 Arab 32,500

You've got your 3 and 2 transposed. It was 23,500. Ben-Gurion estimated Israeli strenght at 30,500, but it may have been much higher.

	23-04-2002 01:08									#59
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 you see things in black and white.

And you don't?

look at your thread title again sir.

	23-04-2002 01:09									#60
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The sad thing about Hamas is that if Arafat used some of his money to provide social services, as Hamas does, he would be better able to counter thier popularity among his people and blunt a rising threat to his continued rule.