 |
|
Bereta_Eder
|
|
Chris, I don't claim the Palestinians are "flawless" in this...
I'm sure they tried to "lobby" for more land in their one way.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Sirotnikov
|
 |
<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:19
|
|
quote:
Every Jewish settlement, the security zones (within W Bank and Gaza), the Israeli only raods (in W Bank) proposed at Camp David, not allowing Pals to return to their land seized through violence in 1967. |
1. How is settling in an area equal to ethnically cleansing the population? I understand it disturbs the balance of people living there, but if I come and build a home in your back yard, it's far from kicking you out.
2. Israeli only roads were suggested for security reasons to provide an enviroment free of clashes. The rest of the roads were meant to be palestinian only. there goes your claim goodbye.
3. Who was prevented from returning to 1967 land? Even terrorists that we've exiled managed to return.
4. How is 1967 anything short of a war?
quote:
What you must confront, is that the entire Israeli state is an exercise in ethnic cleansing. |
No, you failed to prove it.
And anyway, I was specifically asking for references to ethnical cleansing of local arabs pre 1948.
quote:
Nevertheless, the Pals are still willing to accept just 22% of the land and leave 78% to Israel. But no, that's not enough; the Israelis have been told by God to settle the W Bank. |
1. You're an idiot if you think that there is more than 15% of Israelis who actually care about what god told them to do.
2. If you go an read the reports I brought in this thread, you'll see they really are aiming at getting back to pre 1947 borders (IE only Palestine).
3. A huge part of "historical palestine" is actually Jordan. That's right - the whole Area was called palestine, until, Britain decided to divide it along the Jordan river, and give the "Trans-Palestine" area to the Hashemic monarchy, originally from Saudi Arabia.
Now, compare Jordan, to Israel.
4. Why in god's name, did no one cry about the poor opressed palestinians in the 1948 - 1967 time period?
They were under egyptian and jordanian occupation.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Natan
|
 |
New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:19
|
|
As for the actual issue, Israel encouraged people to move to parts of the West Bank it felt would be needed for Israel's security in a future war. Also, now there's an idea of this as non-violent protest - the Palestinians use terrorism to get Jews to leave the region, so people move to the settlements to show them "not only won't we leave, we'll keep building new cities." The Lebensraum comparison is silly because Israel's claim to the land is not based soley or even partially on the idea that Jews need more land for their economic/social well being. Securing area's which have belonged to one's nation historically is connected to Nazis the way having a strong central government is, i.e., it's a trait Nazi Germany shares with many countries throughout history.
Chegitz: It's very tempting, in the aftermath of a war or military campaign, to declare the result predictable. But this is not always so. It was quite reasonable to expect Nazi Germany to defeat Soviet Russia, and it was quite reasonable to expect the Arabs to defeat the Jews in 1947-48. There were a few key unpredictable factors: One was that the Arab armies were not as organized or capable as they should have been. This was not really predictable, and in fact, the Jordanian army was an exception to this, but it was a factor which worked against the Arabs. Another factor which worked against them was that the Jewish towns and villages throughout the area put up a much stiffer defence than expected, Trevor Dupuy's Encyclopedia of Military History (a fairly unbiased source on this matter, I think) cites this as the critical factor. And finally, at a strategic level, the Arab armies were unable to properly coordinate their offensives.
Now for some specific points:
Several Jewish settlements were totally wiped out during the war, including some in Gaza, those in the Hula valley, and Kfar Etzion. Jews were also expelled from East Jerusalem. The Iraqi army mounted a strong offensive against Gesher in may, and as you note, the Egyptians nearly reached Ashdod. So the war really was a contest, and the Arabs really did destroy Jewish settlements.
Also, it's not quite clear to me to what extent Palestinians saw Jordanian rule as foriegn.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
CyberGnu
|
 |
of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:19
|
|
Chris, Carver would never touch a svastika: He would have to take it from Sharon, and we know how sharon would respond to that!
Kropotkin and Siro, that palestinians didn't exist until 30 years ago is one of those perpetual lies that is propagated mainly in israeli textbooks. It only exists to delegitimize the palestinians claim to their homeland.
The truth is that palestinians have been a distinct group for hundreds of years, with their own flavor of music, weaving, pottery, customs and dialect of arabic.
As I've said about ten fifteen times before, saying that palestinians never existed because they look a lot like their neighbours is like saying that Norwegians doesn't exist...
Natan, that is factually wrong. Sharon himself has refused to reign in the settlemtns because of 'Israels right to natural expansion'. There is nothing in there about security.
Siro, are you saying that you really don't know what the probelm with the settlemnts are?
Moving out people of one ethniciity to give room for people of another ethnicity is ethnic cleansing. And that is exactly what the settlements are all about!
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Natan
|
|
New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:19
|
|
Cyber, the people of Bavaria have distinct customs - are they a different nation from other Germans? Are Silesians non-poles? Every region of the Levant has a distinct culture and dialect - be it the Akkar, Mount Lebanon, the Beqaa valley, Latakia, Alexandretta, or the Jazira. In fact, Gazans are somewhat different from West Bankers. By this logic, Syria is just a hodgepodge of different ethnic groups.
And CyberGNU, what Sharon has said in his autobiography and elsewhere, is that Israel needs the West Bank for security and that it was captured in a defensive war. He has refused to prevent the "natural expansion of settlements" but that is different from refusing to prevent the "natural expansion of Israel" into the settlements.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:19.
Apolyton Time is 00:19. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
23-04-2002 01:09
|