25-04-2002 02:09									#1
	Looking for some help on a Discworld scenario... Enter the AD-FREE zone

Looking for a kind soul to...

* Provide me a link to a good map of the Discworld
* Draw/suggest me some unit graphics for the units once I get a list of the ones I'm going to have (Luggage, anyone?)
* Suggest some stuff for tech advances (printing press, the klacks... haven't read all of the books yet, unfortunately )

In exchange, I'll do my best to make a great Disc scenario. Anybody up to giving me a little hand in this?

I'll post the ideas I have for this tomorrow, when I'm less tired.

Last edited by Xuenay on 25-04-2002 at 02:43

	25-04-2002 11:44									#2
	A dream coming true... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hi Xuenay,

A Scenario based on the Discworld!!! That's something I want to see!! Particularly if it's well done!!

So, I am kind of a Pratchett "fanatical" (I read all the discworld series between 3 and 5 times!! yeah, I know, I must be crazy...) and would be glad to try helping you!!

So this is what I propose:

1) I'll start looking for a good map

2) I'm afraid I can't be of any help for drawing... But many others can!! And in case you don't get any positive answer on this thread, I'll start asking the people I know from the other threads who are good at it: I'm sure we'll find what you need!!

3) I'll start thinking about the techs RIGHT NOW!! Expect some feedback in a few days (or maybe even sooner) !! and in case it doesn't come that fast, just remind me...


And to collaborate with efficiency, it might be good to talk online: I'm on MSN (some evenings or maybe on the week-end!!) and as we are both in Europe, it should be quite easy to find a time for that!!

And my Email is: vfrache@hotmail.com

What is yours??


I am expecting your ideas (with impatience... )

	25-04-2002 13:36									#3
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OK, I found your map !!!

	25-04-2002 23:34									#4
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Xuenay @Hotmail.com


All right. I've got the ideas for three civs and some of the tech stuff so far.

Technologies

There are three categories of technology. The first two ones are the same for everybody, while the third category is different for all civs.

Category 1: Normal Science
Covers advances such as the printing press and the klacks. Basically works just like science in Civ usually does.

Category 2: Thoughts from Outside
Covering advances like the moving pictures, Thoughts from Outside let you build powerful wonders and give you all-around great benefits, but also have the unfortunate tendency to create a few Things From The Dungeon Dimensions inside your territory, as well as other nasty surprises.

Category 3: Discworld Events
Causes the events that have taken place in the books to take place in the scenario. Each civ has a different Event tree - for instance, the Agatean Empire could research the Twoflower Departs advance, which would create them a Tourist unit in the Ankh-Morpork continent.

Civilizations: Ankh-Morpork

Ankh-Morpork is one of the dominating civs with its economical power and its wizards. In game terms, this translates into a bunch of wonders (including the Discworld equivalents for Michelangelo's Chapel, Colossus, King Richard's Crusade, Leonard(o)'s Workshop, and probably a few others as well) and a few wizard units.

The actual city square is surrounded by four or more squares of a special resource-rich "Ankh-Morpork" terrain, which hopefully will look like they were parts of the main city.

In order to discourage invasions by greedy computer players, the Ankh-Morpork player controls a group of smaller towns around A-M. These are considered to be completely dependant on the A-M economy, and thus in its control.

It has been mentioned in the books that the strenght of the Ankh-Morpork dollar keeps its enemies at bay. Demonstrating typical Disc literal-mindedness, in this scenario the Ankh-Morpork Dollar is actually a strong but non-buildable defensive unit with a movement factor of zero. Each of the minor towns has one as their sole defensive unit, and a few are fortified around and inside the main city. If the enemy manages to destroy one of these units, the Ankh-Morpork ruler loses 150 gold as the A-M dollar becomes weaker in value.

Merchants are another strong, immobile A-M defensive unit. Many army has entered Ankh-Morpork with the intention of conquering it, only to find themselves cheated penniless by the local merchants. The merchants can only be found inside and in the squares surrounding Ankh-Morpork, and destroying them costs 150 gold to the civ that does it, representing all the money the enemy army spent before coming to their senses and killing the merchants.

Civilizations: The Agatean Empire

Located far away on another continent, the Agatean Empire is immensly wealthy, much due to the plentiful Sapient Pearwood resources within their territory, and their inherent Agatean Wealth wonder (equivalent to Adam Smith's). They have no contact with the other continents or civs at first, but they are the only civ to have the Tourist (acts as a spy) and the Luggage (acts as a freight) units.

I'm not sure of how to prevent the Empire from using their wealth from completely conquering the rest of the world - maybe just have them be located a long way from the rest, and force them under a renamed Democracy?

Civilizations: Things From The Dungeon Dimensions

The obligatory Civ That's In A Permanent War With Everybody And Gets Icky Units From Events.

I'm considering the alternative that in one, far-away, TFTDD city (well, actually more like a rupture in the fabric of reality), there's an artifact left from the Creator, originally used in creating the world. Capturing this (very heavily-defended) city will allow the civ taking it to use the artifact in question to reinforce the fabric of reality, preventing the TFTDD's from entering the Disc, destroying their civ, and winning the scenario.


Well, that's what I have so far.

	26-04-2002 04:55									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

That's sounding good Xuenay There was an 'offical' map of the discworld put out 5 or so years ago... (I've got the map of Ankh-Morpork if it's any help)

On the topic of Ankh-Morpork, I thought that the city was unguarded, and positively welcomed invading armies in order to fleece them (whereupon the armies would either go home or found their own ethnic district of the city )


edit: On closer examination it seems that you're including this

Last edited by Case on 26-04-2002 at 06:37

	26-04-2002 16:19									#6
	Graphic designer?? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi Case,

glad you found this thread, because your name was on my personal list when I mentioned "people I know" on my first post up there...

So, are you ready to help with the units graphics??

It seems that Xuenay has already been thinking quite a lot about this scen, and I have a few ideas too, so we can hope to make something nice and original...

	27-04-2002 01:00									#7
	Support Apolyton

'k, I got my hands on the map (or actually I just noticed that the map they have in GURPS Discworld is the best map of the Disc out there), so I'll see if I can manage to transform it over to Civ. I'm not used to making worlds based on "real" maps, though, so no guarantees of how good it'll be... if somebody thinks they could get a better result, just go ahead and give it a try.

EDIT: Oh, and Cyrion, feel free to post your ideas here. Even if you'd have mentioned them to me on MSN, it's easiest for us all if we have all the suggestions in one place.

Last edited by Xuenay on 27-04-2002 at 01:19

	27-04-2002 06:00									#8
	Got spare money?

Which part of the Discworld universe are you basing it on? Will it be an RPG based on one of the books? That's probably the hardest to do, unless you have a knack for thinking of the ideal events the first time through.


Will it be a slugfest between Ankh-Morpork, Sto Helit, Sto Helat, Genua, the vampire/werewolf lands, Magrat's kingdom? That's not that hard to do and would be really cool.



Will it be an intra-Ankh-Morpork conflict (see Roman Riots? That would also be pretty cool.

if somebody thinks they could get a better result, just go ahead and give it a try.

I will if you care to send me a scan of it.
petrazi@sprint.ca

	27-04-2002 08:23									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Don't forget those Klatchian towel-heads!

	27-04-2002 16:29									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Preferrably, the scenario would cover most of the Disc, and lack any clearly defined goal (with the possible exception of taking the TFTDD city), instead letting one develop the history of the world as one saw fit. However, seeing the number of civilizations mentioned in the books, including all of them might not be possible.

Unfortunately, I don't have a scanner. However, there are a few scans of it online - see

http://www.gre.ac.uk/~mp807/places/themap2.htm
http://website.lineone.net/~tigerwa...c/discmap1.html
http://www.elffantasy.nl/KOBOLD/dis.../discworld.html

	28-04-2002 22:20									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

(with the possible exception of taking the TFTDD city)

The what city? The Lost City of Ee? I am yet to read all 25 books.

Well, I definetly don't feel like making a Discworld gigamap, so once I compile the magnified sections into a multimeg map I'll select a comfortable area (something with Uberwald, Ankh-Morpork, and Klatch) and turn it into a map no larger than 125x80

	28-04-2002 23:15									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: The what city?

:grins: The Things From The Dungeon Dimensions city, assuming that we indeed do use the storyline where they have invaded.

Great thing that you're making the map. I made a few pathetic tries at drawing it myself, but, well, I'd prefer not to talk about them.

	30-04-2002 02:35									#13
	About the units... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

So here are some of the things I have been thinking about!!


First the civs:

1. A-M : no comment
2. Klatch : no comment needed again, big and described in Jingo
3. Agatean Empire : big, typical and described in Interesting Times
4. Uberwald : nice units, special, described in Fifth Elephant and Carpe Jugulum
5. Krull : Special, described in Colour of Magic; could be replaced, though

6. Neutral : all the nations not included up there; further comments below; forces of Nature as well; not playable
7. Dungeon Dimensions: described by Xuenay, not playable


What I thought about the Neutral: if you make ALL the neutral units (and the improvements for them as well) obsolete, then the cities will have to keep on building the units they were already producing, right?? if this is correct, then we could have Lancre producing Witches, Djelibeiby mummies, Omnia inquisitors and so on: it could give "flavour to the game.

What do you think about it?? Or is there a way to use the Barbarians for that, which would free a civ slot or allow us to make a more "conventional" Neutral...

Or the other possibility would be, as proposed by Xuenay, to include the "minor nations" in some of the playable ones!!

Or we could even make a mix of both solutions...


I tried to find interesting units for all playable nations, as well as to help make the plot!! A few comments on the units file I mailed are needed!

1) For each civ, I would like "upgradable units", that is an evolution due to the tech tree!! That is why you'll find "offense 1/2" or "spell 1/2".

2) The wizards (A-M and Krull) are kind of "missile carrier", the "spells 1-3" acting as the missiles!!

3) A few units are common to all civs: caravan, 2 ships, maybe something else!!

4) the "luggage" could be freight, but with really go defense, and maybe "helicopter"?? to allow Agatean to trade more easily?? I don't know if it's possible and would be good...

5) I tried to give at least 1 special unit to each civ, but there is still work to do on some (Vampire= flying??)

6) we could use some units with events: appearing to help a civ, or needing to be destroyed to get a key tech, for instance (Wyrmberg, Temple of Bel-Shamarot, etc...)


I'm not sure what I wrote is intelligible...


And St Leo, about the map: why not make a (flat) map including the whole Disc with Rim units (static, defense of 50) marking the round border of it: that would give a nice Discworld feel: if you try to go across the Rim (i.e. attack it), you die...But I don't know how difficult it would be to make the map, so... it's up to you!!!


Ok, that's all for this time, I'm awaiting you remarks!!

	30-04-2002 05:59									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

This is the area that I am turning into a map (I've done the Klatch/Omnia region). Once I am finished, we'll probably have to resize it to roughly one quarter of its current size due to the sparsity of information.

Attachment: discworlds.png
This has been downloaded 268 time(s).

	02-05-2002 03:18									#15
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Hey, Discworld! Fantastic. Don't forget to add Cohan the Barbarian and his silver horde (a band of geriatric heroes) as units.

I always thought about a DW scenario set in Ankh-Morpork with the guilds (wizards,assasins etc) battling each other for supremacy of the city (kinda like Roman riots.)

	02-05-2002 06:13									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I've decided that this is the perfect time to begin abusing my privileges:

http://sleague.apolyton.net/persona...scworldmaps.zip

As is noted in the readme, I recommend using the 32x65 map as the basis for the scenario. After all, this is not Tolkien and there are no 200 campfire descriptions between points of interest.

BTW, we could also cut off the North (Uberwald and M-something) off the large map (leave AM, Klatch, and Omnia) and use that.


Hey, Discworld! Fantastic. Don't forget to add Cohan the Barbarian and his silver horde (a band of geriatric heroes) as units.

Cohen will probably get in, but we'll (they'll?) probably focus on the City Watch character set.

I always thought about a DW scenario set in Ankh-Morpork with the guilds (wizards,assasins etc) battling each other for supremacy of the city (kinda like Roman riots.)

Go, Seamstresses, go!

	02-05-2002 06:15									#17
	Minimap Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

"Thank you, floor, for not collapsing under the weight of my genius." - Gimpy, Undergrads

Attachment: dw.gif
This has been downloaded 243 time(s).

	02-05-2002 11:56									#18
	About the map... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Nice (and fast!) work St-Leo

Just a remark before I take a real look at your map: I would leave the northern part of the map in: Uberwald, Lancre and the Wyrmberg would give SOOO MANY interesting opportunities!!

	02-05-2002 23:24									#19
	Tired of ads?

If you need a name and context for the Appollo wonder, how about The Kite (from the Last Hero, the craft that circled the disc?)

I love both idea of the A M Dollar as a defense, and the Merchants. Give the Merchants the higher defense, so they get killed first, and the attackers lose their own money before they attack the dollars.

Also, have you considered using the barbarians for the Things from Beyond?

If you make them an "Exotic" civilization you might well make their city "The Lost City of Ee." Why not? Consider putting it beyond the circumference of the disc.

What time range are you looking at using? The face of the disc has changed over time no doubt.

What place are you planning for nonhumans? The Trolls, Dwarves, etc? Can some be their own civilization?

Possibilities Mr. Pratchett hasn't tackled yet could be open. There is no reason Leonard of Quirm or a later genius could not invent the railroad, or equivalent.

Lucius Alexander

Palindromedary Enterprises

	02-05-2002 23:51									#20
	Suffering from ads?

Probably won't be using Apollo, but thanks for the suggestion (unless we remove the SS improvements from play and reduce the cost for building Apollo/the Kite, so that it only reveals the map... hmm...)

We thought about using barbarians as the Dungeon Dimensions, but at the moment seems like we're going to have them as the main threat in the scenario, so barbarians don't quite fit that role.

I won't comment about the Lost City of Ee, since I haven't read the relevant book.

As for the time range, it'd probably start somewhere near the first novels, and then proceed through time as the civs work their way up the tech three.

Some of the civs will be able to produce nonhuman units, and they'll be often mentioned in the events/Discopedia entries, but probably not more than that. Giving some their own civ is a possibility, but seven civ slots really isn't a lot - they'll get one if we'll have any surplus ones (which I doubt).

We'll see about the "future tech". They'll probably have the same role as the non-human civs, that is, they'll be included if there are any extra tech slots to spare.

Last edited by Xuenay on 02-05-2002 at 23:58

	03-05-2002 02:12									#21
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Ok, so it seems we will be using the biggest map describing the region around the Circle Sea!!

So the nations would be (though some changes are still possible!! )

1. Ankh-Morpork
2. Klatch
3. Omnia
4. Uberwald
5. Lancre

and the 2 AI civs: Neutral and Dungeon Dimensions

	03-05-2002 02:21									#22
	Time to make some lists... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

And now for something completely different...


Ok, now it's time to think about the various techs, so first we should try to make a list of the "Discworld" techs and what they would bring as:
- units
- improvements
- wonders
- new techs

For instance, "Golem making" could allow to build a "Golem factory" improvement that would work as a factory, and be a prerequisite for "Golem Freedom" which would allow to build "Golems" units!!

And "Pigeon Messages" could be a prerequisite for the "Klaks communication"...

Any ideas welcome!!

When we have enough, we can make a list and discuss it!!

And a second list which would be useful is one about the various cities/villages of the Discworld (as well as their location...)



So let's start writing, and I'll compile the results !!

	03-05-2002 23:33									#23
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I'm a little unsure of including Lancre, considering its tiny size. A few excerpts from GURPS Discworld:

A kingdom on the Sto Plains side of the Ramtops, total population (humans, dwarfs, and trolls) about 500. This is admittedly small, even for a fantasy kingdom...

...most human Lancrastians live in Lancre Town. "Town" is an extravagant name for it, but it is the biggest habitation, which gives it some of the privileges of a city, such as City Proclamations.

I'm not sure, but wouldn't there some larger civs around the Circle Sea that'd have a bigger right for that civ slot? Lancre could then be merged with one of the bigger ones.

	04-05-2002 04:32									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

IMO, Lancre would be best implimented as one of the 'Neutral' cities (pehaps with some unique units in it). Really, as Xuenay pointed out, it's too small to compete with the other civs.

	04-05-2002 06:04									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Suggestions? The relevant choices are probably in Jingo and Small Gods.

	06-05-2002 13:53									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

OK guys, I finished going through all the books looking for ideas (well, not all, but still over 20 of them...) and I'll probably post/mail something about it tonight!!

And we still need to find the 5th playable civ: Lancre would be too small, I agree, but if we choose Ephebe or Tsort it would be quite crowded down there, leaving to much room to develop for the northern civs!! Except if we prohibit settlers unit and give strong defense to neutrals??

	06-05-2002 23:16									#27
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Yeah, you'd have to prohibit settler units if you use the large map.

	08-05-2002 02:31									#28
	Concrete proposals... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ok, let's get a bit more concrete!! So this is what I propose:

we will choose the 5th playable civ later, between the following ones:

1. Ramtop Nations : including Lancre
2. Ephebe
3. Tsort
4. Djelibeiby
5. Combination of 2,3,4
6. something else...

To avoid problems with the fact that some would have more room to expand than others, NO settler units (or only created by events, to limit how many every country would get).

I would like every nation to have the same number of available units, a few from the start, a few to be researched and a few given by events. As many as possible of this units being civ-specific!!

oh, and why not make the Capitals nearly impregnable??


And here is what I have for the units (Initial means "not buildable but existing at the beginning!):

1. Ankh-Morpork

Initial defensive units: Merchants and A-M $, as described by Xuenay

First Unit: City Watch Constable

Defensive Unit: City Watch Officer (by tech)

Offensive Units: Wizards (by tech)

Diplo Units: Assassin

Flying Unit : Flying Wizard (by tech)

Special Unit: Rincewind

Total : 8


2. Klatch

Initial defensive units: Desert Wastes (??), unbuildable

First Units: Camel Riders ("Towel-Heads")

Defensive Units: Foreign Legion (by tech)

Offensive Units: D'regs (by tech)

Diplo Units: Assassin

Flying Unit : Magic Carpet (by tech)

Special Unit: none ?? (or Ahmed ??)

Total : 6 (7??)


3. Omnia

Initial defensive units: The Citadel

First Units: Divine Legion, evolutive

Defensive Units: Divine Legion II ?? (by tech)

Offensive Units: Moving Turtle (by tech)

Diplo Units: Exquisitor

Flying Unit : none ??

Special Unit: ?? Vorbis ??

Total : 6


4. Uberwlad

Initial defensive units: Dwarven Stronghold ?? (or none ??)

First Units: Dwarves

Defensive Units: Trolls (by tech)

Offensive Units: Werewolves (by tech)

Diplo Units: none ?? (or Igors ??)

Flying Unit : Vampires

Special Unit: Lady Margolotta ??

Total : 6 (or 7 ??)


5. Example of 5th Civ: Ramtop Kingdoms

Initial defensive units: none ??

First Units: Ogg Family

Defensive Units: Trolls (by tech)

Offensive Units: Nac mac Feegle (by tech)

Diplo Units: Witch

Flying Unit : Flying Witch

Special Unit: Granny Weatherwax

Total : 6



And then:

Common units

Ship 1, Ship 2 (by tech!!)

Trade unit (by tech)

Which would make a total of 35 units, leaving 27 for the 2 AI CIVs + the "event units" (and believe me, I already got nearly enough ideas to use a lot of those slots... )




So, what do you think about that ??

	08-05-2002 03:04									#29
	Miscellaneous... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And just to prove I have been working quite hard on it , a few things I found in the books...

Units Events (I mean units that appear via events and that give you something if you destroy them! cf Jules Verne scen...)

Temple of Bel-Shamharoth
Wyrmberg
Pyramids
Great Pyramid of Tsort
Tezuman Temple
Department Store (from Soul Music) (and Small Globes and Wire Trolleys??)
Holy Wood
Leshp


Cities (neutral or others, everything related to them!)

Ephebe: Labyrinth (very strong defensive unit!!), Philosophers (Copernic's Wonder??)

Al-Khali: capital of Klatch

Gebra: mighty fortress in Klatch

Copperhead and Schmalzberg: in Uberwald


Units (neutral or others, everything related to them!)

Barbarian Heroes
Gods
Death
4 Horsemen
Dragons (Wyrmberg)
Mummies (Djelibeiby)
Wooden horse (Tsort and Ephebe)
Demons
Auditors
Phoenix

+ DD units!!
+ units for Neutral: Hubland Barbarians, Great Nef Nomads, etc...


Techs

Iconograph
Octo-Cellulose
Steam (for Steam Boat and Moving Turtle)
The Gonne
Music with Rocks in (for an Happy Improvement) and Free Festival Wonder (Shakespear??)
Golem use (for a kind of factory)
Forensic Dep.
Dis-Organizer
something for The Boat (Submarine)
Carrier-pigeon Network (pre-req for next one)
Semaphore Shutters (pre-req for next one)
Clacks Towers (allows improvement, but what??)
Rubber vats
Printing Press


That's all Folks...

	08-05-2002 04:21									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Cyrion, what does your sig translate as?