28-04-2002 01:57									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Define a child, or give an age limit, and you may get some response

14 and below will do as a definition in this case as that was the lowest age of consent I saw in the US. Now stop avoiding the question.

	28-04-2002 02:16									#152
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quote: 14 and below will do as a definition in this case as that was the lowest age of consent I saw in the US. Now stop avoiding the question.

As I said, in the other thread I go with the Dutch law
I would argue that any teenager, capable of being pregnant/having an orgasm, is also mental mature enough to have sex. This age can be set for a law on 12. I agree that on the starting age they need some protection (-> no more than 4 years age diffrence, aproval of the parents). From 14 they can do whatever they want with whoever they like, and its noone elses business.

	28-04-2002 03:55									#153
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quote: There's no such thing as a "thought crime." I can think how lovely it would be to lob a few nukes in the general direction of France and kill off mass millions of innocent people. I can think that all day long and it doesn't make it illegal.

This is something I personally would disagree. But what is more important: As long as you think, you do not influence your environment. And as long as you only think, you are free to whatever you are up to. (For me, it's the foremost sign of a totalitarian system that the government wants to influence your thinking).
Thinking is fundamentally different of speaking (post this in the thread "most stupid things you've ever heard"). First you can think a lot of which you don't talk about, except you are mentally incontinent. Second, speaking (or creating your website) you start to influence your environment, as much as by doing something. As I've said before, you can drive someone into suicide only by speaking. This is not a crime? By speaking only you can lower the threshold to commit a crime substantially. 10000 flies cannot go wrong, excrements are wonderful food - 10000 Nambla'ers cannot go wrong, pedophilia is not a crime.

I think speech has to undergo some sort of suitable social control, as much as actions do. Too much tolerance against someone who wants to install intolerance kills itself. An unlimited freedom is impossible (or at least not stable). We have to limit freedom in order to be able to defend the freedom we have. Of speech as much as of actions.

German constitution doesn't make it easy to forbid speech (as e.g. forbidding a political party). There were two cases in the last 50 years (one Neonazi and one Stalinist party), and one other is in preparation (Neonazi).

On the other hand, sometimes there are situations where even and especially a responsible citizen has to do - or say - something illegal.

quote: I support the artist's right to post anything on the site that does not violate current laws or other agreements I have with some of my service providers, even if what I wind up supporting makes me squemish.

There you have them - the restrictions.
And I think there is still a difference between stupid, I-don't-agree, and criminal.

	28-04-2002 07:33									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 quote: 14 and below will do as a definition in this case as that was the lowest age of consent I saw in the US. Now stop avoiding the question. As I said, in the other thread I go with the Dutch law I would argue that any teenager, capable of being pregnant/having an orgasm, is also mental mature enough to have sex. This age can be set for a law on 12. I agree that on the starting age they need some protection (-> no more than 4 years age diffrence, aproval of the parents). From 14 they can do whatever they want with whoever they like, and its noone elses business.

I disagree --- I do not care how fast or when a person physically matures, because phsyical maturation does not mean emotional or psychological maturation.

I say that 18 year olds on up should be allowed to have sex with an adult of any age that they wish to be with.

	28-04-2002 08:05									#155
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At one time NAMBLA did alot more than just express their point of view. They have been known to arrange junkets to Asian countries like the Phillipines and Thailand which included contacts with people in those countries who would arrange for the men to be set up with young boys who would do whatever the men wished.

NAMBLA also at one time actually had contacts with social agencies in New Jersey which ( unknowingly I persume ) would arrange for the men to meet boys in a sort of "Big Brothers" sort of arrasngement.

	28-04-2002 08:47									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 I would argue that any teenager, capable of being pregnant/having an orgasm, is also mental mature enough to have sex.

You're one of those Ephebophiles aren't you? I'd like to know how you are able to equate physical maturity with mental maturity in this case.

	28-04-2002 08:54									#157
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Yeah, just because you can argue it doesn't mean you can back up your arguement with substance.

	28-04-2002 11:23									#158
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You're one of those Ephebophiles aren't you? I'd like to know how you are able to equate physical maturity with mental maturity in this case.

Exactly what I stated, DinoDoc. I am waiting for the reply too.

	28-04-2002 11:33									#159
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quote: Tom201 (-> no more than 4 years age diffrence, aproval of the parents)

Approval of the parents? I'd guess there is some lack of realism. It is important that parents give also advice to their children in sexual things. But I wouldn't ask anybody "I want to sleep with ..." except of replaying "..." with "you". Requiring to do so is a violation of the private sphere which also x year old children have.

	28-04-2002 11:36									#160
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Is Michael Jackson a member of NAMBLA?

	28-04-2002 14:28									#161
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Hmm, did you guys read the other thread (Interfering in Other Peoples' Sex Lives), I explained a lot of stuff already there. So some answers are quotes from that thread.

quote: Originally posted by MrFun I say that 18 year olds on up should be allowed to have sex with an adult of any age that they wish to be with.

Does this mean no sex in general bevor 18 or only no sex younger ones with older ones?

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc You're one of those Ephebophiles aren't you?

Didnt know that word bevor. A quik search brings up the definition: sexual involvement with adolescents (as an adult I guess). If this definition is correct, no.
Youngest girl I had sex with was 16 with me as the younger part (13), other relationships didnt differ more than 2 years.

quote: I'd like to know how you are able to equate physical maturity with mental maturity in this case.

The question is not why, rather than why not.
When you look at other laws, concerning responsibility limits, its very reasonable. A child of 10 for example cant be charged for shoplifting. While there is a law, that from the age of 14 you are able to sign minor (privat) business contracts. Additionally you get in trouble for criminal activity.
I think this limits also should apply for other issues. Why isnt a teenager able to make decissions on sex, when he can on business stuff?

I had my own 1st sexual experience nearly the age stated as a limit in the law (12 vs 13). Dispite that I dont get any nightmares or whatever, and it was a rather good experience

quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus Approval of the parents? I'd guess there is some lack of realism. It is important that parents give also advice to their children in sexual things. But I wouldn't ask anybody "I want to sleep with ..." except of replaying "..." with "you". Requiring to do so is a violation of the private sphere which also x year old children have.

Ok, so you disagree with the aproval of parents part of the law, for sex between 12 and 14?

	28-04-2002 14:39									#162
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quote: Adalbertus By speaking only you can lower the threshold to commit a crime substantially

So we should forbid gangster rap or no?

quote: Adalbertus German constitution doesn't make it easy to forbid speech (as e.g. forbidding a political party). There were two cases in the last 50 years (one Neonazi and one Stalinist party), and one other is in preparation (Neonazi).

I agree it is not easy to forbid a party in germany.
But it is very easy and seems to be very random to forbid, books, printings, tapes, etc. (-> Indizierungen, Beschlagnahmungen). There is a high level on censorship in germany.

	28-04-2002 16:23									#163
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quote: Ok, so you disagree with the aproval of parents part of the law, for sex between 12 and 14?

I don't disagree, it's simply I doubt it works. (or it's not to protect children but to sue their parents in case something happens. In this case I'm not sure if I better disagreed. In this age of the kids it's a really hard thing to assign responsibilities in a fair way if something goes wrong).

quote: So we should forbid gangster rap or no?

Never was really interested in. this kind of music. I try to get away from rap before there is a way to see if there is some sort of text. But generally, it depends. You'll have to look into every single case in doubt, and being physicist, I've not had the education to decide this in a way that society really improves. To see if one needs to set a limit it is not helpful to look at cases in doubt but you need to look at the extremes. A total control of speech is bad, we can all agree about that. A total freedom of speech excuses everything Hitler did do 1933-1945. During these years, the only person he personally killed was he himself. I think we can all agree, that this is bad, too. So we need a limit to the freedom of speech. The discussion should be where to set the limits and not if. Disagreeing about the position of this limit should be free

quote: But it is very easy and seems to be very random to forbid, books, printings, tapes, etc. (-> Indizierungen, Beschlagnahmungen). There is a high level on censorship in germany.

What is relatively easy is "Indizierung". This doesn't mean that a book, ... is forbidden but that you mustn't display it in a shop and you mustn't advertise it. You are free to keep it under the shelf and sell it on demand. It's not forbidden to own this stuff.

	28-04-2002 16:57									#164
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quote: A total freedom of speech excuses everything Hitler did do 1933-1945. During these years, the only person he personally killed was he himself.

There is a big diffrence between free speech and giving orders
I agree that some special kinds of the second shouldnt be allowed....

quote: What is relatively easy is "Indizierung". This doesn't mean that a book, ... is forbidden but that you mustn't display it in a shop and you mustn't advertise it. You are free to keep it under the shelf and sell it on demand. It's not forbidden to own this stuff.

I would call Indizierung a quite harsh form of censorship.
You are not allowed to write about the medium in magazines, or in news or whatever.
Practically there is no legal way to inform costumers this product even exists. They know anyways because they dont obey this law.
Take in account that "Indizierungen" are very whitespread, practically every FPS is, a lot of popular movies are (Starship Troopers, Evil Dead, Friday 13th, etc.). 70% of FSK18 Movies are cut as a requirment for not being "indiziert".

	28-04-2002 18:03									#165
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The Black Panthers differ from the KKK in one inportant regard, that is that they have never actually LYNCHED anybody, nor have they set light to any crosses (or cresants) on anybodies lawn. The KKK are responcible for the murder of hundreds of people and the burning of hundreds of churches (many while full).


Beyond that- the Panthers are just a bunch of racists, reactionary racism or not. Some members of the KKK are descendants of Irish Catholics! an insight into their absence of real self identity in my opinion, the KKK only like white prodestants.

	28-04-2002 18:28									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Hmm, did you guys read the other thread (Interfering in Other Peoples' Sex Lives), I explained a lot of stuff already there. So some answers are quotes from that thread.. [/q] The question is not why, rather than why not. When you look at other laws, concerning responsibility limits, its very reasonable. A child of 10 for example cant be charged for shoplifting. While there is a law, that from the age of 14 you are able to sign minor (privat) business contracts. Additionally you get in trouble for criminal activity. I think this limits also should apply for other issues. Why isnt a teenager able to make decissions on sex, when he can on business stuff? Ok, so you disagree with the aproval of parents part of the law, for sex between 12 and 14?

As I explained in that thread, you are actually wrong. A person under the age of 16 can not enter contracts without his parents permission unless he has had a court declare him to be an "emancipated minor". He also has to obtain a special permit in order to get a job, and can only get a "learner's" driving permit. In many parts of the US now teens under 18 can not drive after dark without having adult supervision.
A child of ten CAN be tried for shoplifting, but only in juvenile court. IIRC we had a thread last year about the 2 English kids who murdered a toddler being released upon reaching maturity. They were tried and sentenced even though they were only 10 weren't they?

	28-04-2002 18:44									#167
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Ok than it seems in the US minors have in general a lot less rights than in Euope. Than that is wrong too
Especially when you look at the other US laws about responsibility. You can be charged for shoplifting when you are 12 years old? You think this is justified or not ?
If yes ... When a teenager is considered mature enough to make decissions on comiting crime on his own (-> he is responsible, he exactly knew what he is doing), how is that diffrent from making decissions on his privat life.

Last edited by Tom201 on 28-04-2002 at 18:51

	28-04-2002 19:20									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 Ok than it seems in the US minors have in general a lot less rights than in Euope. Than that is wrong too Especially when you look at the other US laws about responsibility. You can be charged for shoplifting when you are 12 years old? You think this is justified or not ? If yes ... When a teenager is considered mature enough to make decissions on comiting crime on his own (-> he is responsible, he exactly knew what he is doing), how is that diffrent from making decissions on his privat life.

Whether a minor is to be charged as an adult or not is determined on an individual basis, usually depending on the crime, the motivation and the mental state of the perpetrator. Generally only particuarly greivous crimes like murder or rape would motivate the prosecution to request that the minor be tried as an adult. It varies form state to state, but kids under 14 aren't generally liable to being tried as an adult. There have actually been cases in which gangs have taken advantage of these laws and used kids under 14 to carry drugs and guns. The significance of trying a case as an adult is that it opens the possibility of administering adult punishment. There is a seperate judicial system for minors. The trials are usually less formal, and often involve psychologists and social workers in the judgement process. Minors can be sentenced to mental health treatment or special juvenile detention centers which are less harsh than adult prisons. By law when a juvenile reaches maturity his juvenile criminal record is wiped clean.

Let me get this straight: You'd consider it wrong to try a kid for a crime he committed, but then turn around and consider him mature enough to have sexual intercourse?

	28-04-2002 19:27									#169
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quote: You'd consider it wrong to try a kid for a crime he committed, but then turn around and consider him mature enough to have sexual intercourse?

No, I would set the starting age for both on 12 (with some extra rules), full responsibility starts at 14.
My point is that laws should keep some logic.

	28-04-2002 19:44									#170
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quote: Originally posted by Tom201 quote: You'd consider it wrong to try a kid for a crime he committed, but then turn around and consider him mature enough to have sexual intercourse? No, I would set the starting age for both on 12 (with some extra rules), full responsibility starts at 14. My point is that laws should keep some logic.

Why? It is one thing to be mature enough to know that it is wrong to steal or hurt another person. It is quite another thing to be mature enough to assume the responsibility for the care of a child, which any person who has sexual intercourse should be willing to do.

	28-04-2002 19:54									#171
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I dont want a child. Most times ppl. having sex they dont want children either. There is such a thing called pleasure...
Pregnancy can be prevented you know...

	28-04-2002 21:39									#172
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Thank the maker Tom won't be spreading his genetic material. That gene pool definitely needs some chlorine.

Why can't suicide bombers take out NAMBLA? I'd pay $25,000 to the family of the bomber, and I'm poor.

Personally, I think the minimum sentence for proven child molestors should be castration. The maximum being the death penalty. But again, the justice system needs reform to avoid the punishment of innocents. I would apply this to any priests (regardless of denomination) who molest kids as well.

	28-04-2002 21:43									#173
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Amazing, and in the other thread someone made the assertion that you are 21 and know all about the birds and the bees. Sex causes pregnancy, did you know that? Ah, I seem to recall that you have a fondness for condoms. They're one of the less effective forms of birth control, did you know that? The use of condoms reduces the likelihood of pregnancy by only 50%.

I know, you're going to tell her to go have an abortion, aren't you? Real nice of you to make a 14 year old go kill her baby. Why don't you go have the abortion for her? You can't can you? You could at least go have a vasectomy.

We're all here for your pleasure aren't we?

	28-04-2002 21:53									#174
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Maybe you have missed it, but I actually dont have a realtionship to a minor girl. The one that other thread is about isnt me.

	28-04-2002 21:55									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Why? It is one thing to be mature enough to know that it is wrong to steal or hurt another person. It is quite another thing to be mature enough to assume the responsibility for the care of a child, which any person who has sexual intercourse should be willing to do.

Why do you assume this is only a problem a young person would have? Every day people 30 or 40 or older are having children they aren't prepared to assume the responsibility for. This is why millions of abortions occur every year. Shall we declare everyone who has had an abortion immature and incapable of being responsibly in control of their lives?

	28-04-2002 21:55									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove You could at least go have a vasectomy.

Nah... people like him are way to selfish, and only care about themselves and their own gratification. Someday he will grow up and learn to accept responsibility for his actions... until then, he's just another bozo who thinks with the wrong head

	28-04-2002 21:59									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Amazing, and in the other thread someone made the assertion that you are 21 and know all about the birds and the bees. Sex causes pregnancy, did you know that? Ah, I seem to recall that you have a fondness for condoms. They're one of the less effective forms of birth control, did you know that? The use of condoms reduces the likelihood of pregnancy by only 50%.

Actually no, you are wrong. If cared for properly condoms are effective about 97% or so of the time. I think 50% is a low stat even if you take into account human error, which is the prime cause of "condom failure" but for responsible people condoms are very effective.

	28-04-2002 22:00									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Nah... people like him are way to selfish, and only care about themselves and their own gratification. Someday he will grow up and learn to accept responsibility for his actions... until then, he's just another bozo who thinks with the wrong head

You don't know a damn thing about him. This is just another attempt to cut down one's opinions because they disagree with you. How many guys in here would honestly get a viscectomy as a single guy? The idea is preposterous, and you are foolish to even ask.

	28-04-2002 22:01									#179
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Why the fork is this NAMBLA thread so popular?

	28-04-2002 22:04									#180
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"The use of condoms reduces the likelihood of pregnancy by only 50%."

Only if you don't know how to use them properly. If used properly, they're over 95% effective. Otherwise, how would you explain a normal couple who have been married several years and using one condoms as the sole source of contraception having only one child?